A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[NanaKat]

I've been selecting some pullets to add to the Columbian Wyandotte breed pen for next year. A few are now molting so some tail feathers are dropping. The pullet in the second photo is out of the White Wyandotte rooster over a Columbian hen. She has nice size and type and should offer better colored chicks when paired with a good colored rooster.


one of the saved cocks and a nice looking pullet to his right. the next photo is one of the older hens on the left with a nice pullet to her right and another behind the gate.


Also kept only two cocks from the selection from the 2015 fall hatch. One is pictured above and in the next few photos. he has a nicer comb than the second cockerel. Except for a little barring on a few of the tail feathers on the second bird, they have identical type and size.




I'm getting some clean backs with no ticking, good yellow legs, nicer combs, good size on the young hens. The cockerels are an improvement on their sire in size, type and color. So I feel I'm finally making some headway.

.

 

[troyer]

I've been selecting some pullets to add to the Columbian Wyandotte breed pen for next year. A few are now molting so some tail feathers are dropping. The pullet in the second photo is out of the White Wyandotte rooster over a Columbian hen. She has nice size and type and should offer better colored chicks when paired with a good colored rooster.


one of the saved cocks and a nice looking pullet to his right. the next photo is one of the older hens on the left with a nice pullet to her right and another behind the gate.


Also kept only two cocks from the selection from the 2015 fall hatch. One is pictured above and in the next few photos. he has a nicer comb than the second cockerel. Except for a little barring on a few of the tail feathers on the second bird, they have identical type and size.




I'm getting some clean backs with no ticking, good yellow legs, nicer combs, good size on the young hens. The cockerels are an improvement on their sire in size, type and color. So I feel I'm finally making some headway.

.

SUPER

 

[Wisher1000]

Yes! Very nice! Congratulations!

 

[bramblefir]

I'm hoping you guys can help me decide on a breed to work with. Right now I raise American Buff geese, Welsh Harlequin ducks, and I have a hodgepodge of chickens that I'm in the process of culling down to a small laying flock. While mixing breeds has been fun and educational, I'm now ready to get serious with just one or two breeds. I have the SOP on my desk and an APA membership card in my wallet.

Some more information that will hopefully help you help me decide:

- Our climate is mild and I've never had any issues with frostbite or heat.
- I don't care one whit about egg color.
- I need a breed that I can butcher at or before 16 weeks.
- Meat quantity is NOT important, but butchering age is.
- I use a lot of eggs and give even more to several families.
- I would prefer an old foundation breed over a more modern composite breed.
- I love, and prefer, hatching with broodies.
- My 7 year old daughter wants to show, manage her own "breeding project", and loves crested breeds.

I'm considering having an egg breed and a dual-purpose, or possibly just an egg breed.

Some breeds I'm considering are (* means I've raised hatchery versions):

- Ancona
- Andalusian*
- Campine
- Dorking*
- Hamburg*
- Houdan
- Lakenvelder
- Langshan*
- Redcaps
- Sultans
- White Faced Black Spanish

My daughter really likes the Mottled Houdans and Sultans, of course.

So, what do you all suggest for me?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I'm hoping you guys can help me decide on a breed to work with. Right now I raise American Buff geese, Welsh Harlequin ducks, and I have a hodgepodge of chickens that I'm in the process of culling down to a small laying flock. While mixing breeds has been fun and educational, I'm now ready to get serious with just one or two breeds. I have the SOP on my desk and an APA membership card in my wallet.

Some more information that will hopefully help you help me decide:

- Our climate is mild and I've never had any issues with frostbite or heat.
- I don't care one whit about egg color.
- I need a breed that I can butcher at or before 16 weeks.
- Meat quantity is NOT important, but butchering age is.
- I use a lot of eggs and give even more to several families.
- I would prefer an old foundation breed over a more modern composite breed.
- I love, and prefer, hatching with broodies.
- My 7 year old daughter wants to show, manage her own "breeding project", and loves crested breeds.

I'm considering having an egg breed and a dual-purpose, or possibly just an egg breed.

Some breeds I'm considering are (* means I've raised hatchery versions):

- Ancona
- Andalusian*
- Campine
- Dorking*
- Hamburg*
- Houdan
- Lakenvelder
- Langshan*
- Redcaps
- Sultans
- White Faced Black Spanish

My daughter really likes the Mottled Houdans and Sultans, of course.

So, what do you all suggest for me?

Honestly and to the point, your list doesn't make sense and it's full of contradictions, i.e. the breed you listed doesn't exist.

Try this approach instead if you really want to breed:

Get rid of all of your layers next fall--every single one of them, once next springs birds come of age.

Eliminate Houdans, Sultans, and Redcaps from the list because you can't get them in a form worth working with. Choose ONE of the others, and focus there, learn to work with them, learn what they're about, learn how to get what you want out of them, and change your husbandry to meet the needs of raising that strain of that breed well.

Find the breed, choose the breed: one breed and one variety, and the make the husbandry match the choice.

Your daughter would probably be best serve by getting one or two pairs of White crested black polish bantams from Jan Brett at Folkloric Bantams.

 

[Sydney Acres]

I'm hoping you guys can help me decide on a breed to work with. Right now I raise American Buff geese, Welsh Harlequin ducks, and I have a hodgepodge of chickens that I'm in the process of culling down to a small laying flock. While mixing breeds has been fun and educational, I'm now ready to get serious with just one or two breeds. I have the SOP on my desk and an APA membership card in my wallet.

Some more information that will hopefully help you help me decide:

- Our climate is mild and I've never had any issues with frostbite or heat.
- I don't care one whit about egg color.
- I need a breed that I can butcher at or before 16 weeks.
- Meat quantity is NOT important, but butchering age is.
- I use a lot of eggs and give even more to several families.
- I would prefer an old foundation breed over a more modern composite breed.
- I love, and prefer, hatching with broodies.
- My 7 year old daughter wants to show, manage her own "breeding project", and loves crested breeds.

I'm considering having an egg breed and a dual-purpose, or possibly just an egg breed.

Some breeds I'm considering are (* means I've raised hatchery versions):

- Ancona
- Andalusian*
- Campine
- Dorking*
- Hamburg*
- Houdan
- Lakenvelder
- Langshan*
- Redcaps
- Sultans
- White Faced Black Spanish

My daughter really likes the Mottled Houdans and Sultans, of course.

So, what do you all suggest for me?

If meat quantity is not important, then how is "butchering age" determined? Realistically, you can butcher any bird at any age, but typically an appropriate butchering age is determined as the age when their weight gain slows down so much that it is no longer worth the cost to feed them. Essentially, it's the point when each pound of meat gain starts to cost too much to produce. Meat quantity is part of the definition of butchering age for most farmers. For some breeders, "culling age" is determined to be the age when birds reach a level of maturity such that their frame, or whatever other feature you're emphasizing, is adequately mature to determine if the bird is breeding quality, which will be earliest for the rapidly maturing layer breeds.

In most cases, layer breeds will lay many more eggs than the dual purpose breeds. Since you don't care about meat quantity but need lots of eggs, a layer breed would be most appropriate for your needs. Most of those breeds won't brood, since egg numbers can't be maximized if the hen takes 8-10 weeks off twice a year to brood, so that feature has been selected out of those breeds. However, since your daughter likes the crested breeds and you want broodies, you might consider either Silkies, or Silkie mixes. The Silkie is a crested bantam that is a brooding machine with unique hair-like feathers. A Silkie mix will usually retain the brooding enthusiasm, but will usually have normal feathers, and if the Silkie is mixed with a large fowl the broody size will be increased so they can cover more eggs. The Silkies or Silkie mixes could be your incubating employees, and the layer breed of your choice could donate the fertile eggs. You could work towards the SOP for your layer breed, and your daughter could work with the Silkies.

Another important consideration -- what breed is available to you? You need to find a breed where good quality stock is available, ideally with a local mentor attached. It's very discouraging to a new breeder to get their heart set on a rare breed, only to realize that no good quality stock is available. So you start with mediocre birds, but have no one available to mentor you towards improvement, so you spin your wheels just trying to prevent your breeder quality from falling even further down the drain. Starting at the bottom isn't fun, especially when there's no one around to help you move up.

 

[bramblefir]

Thank you both for your forthright replies! Yesterday I was running on 3 nights in a row of poor sleep (courtesy a teething baby) and attempting to type something coherent on a phone. So my apologies for my list not making much sense. Let me (attempt) to clarify now that I'm on my computer and have had some decent sleep. If it still doesn't make sense then please let me know!

I fully recognize that a layer breed will be best suited to my needs. A large quantity of eggs is most important for our uses. I am aware that the best layer breeds are non-sitters and broodiness was more of a concern if I were to select a dual-purpose breed.

As far as meat, which I think is probably the part that came across as the most confusing, I would prefer to butcher out broilers and fryers (age-wise). For the fast growing layer breeds they've usually hit their peak growth in those age ranges, correct? Obviously they are not going to yield a lot of meat, but I only put a whole roast chicken on the table 1 or 2 times in a year. We prefer chicken prepared on the bbq, fried, or served in old-fashioned dishes like pot pie. Since the breeds I'm interested in require a lot of work there will definitely be a lot of culling and so there will be plenty of meat for our uses (one way or another). I have cull ducks and geese for meat too.

My great-grandfather raised and bred White Leghorns. The Leghorns were their main source of eggs and meat; also their primary source of income. From what I understand they ran a hatchery and, besides doing custom hatching, they sold White Leghorns all over the country. My grandpa was telling me about the kerosene-powered incubators and getting a special light from the postmaster that they would take to the train tracks and wave around to stop the mail train so they could load up their shipments.


Yellow House Farm, in answer to some of the things you mentioned:

The layer flock will ultimately be getting culled down to 4 of my daughter's chickens, 3 bantams and a Hamburg-cross that she's extremely attached too. They will all be moving to a coop down by the house where she can spend more time with them.

Are the Houdans, Sultans, and Redcaps too far gone to revive at this point? I will happily settle down with one breed at this point. I'm tired of fooling around and spinning my wheels.


Sydney Acres, in answer to some of the things you mentioned:

Your first paragraph is sort of what I was going for in regards to meat. I think I've done a better job of clarifying what I was trying to say above.

My daughter does like Silkies - maybe I will try and encourage her in that direction.

How far out do you consider "local"? There is a "breeder" outside of the same town as me. She raises something like 20 breeds, so I'm not sure that her stock would be any improvement over hatchery. Within 40 minutes there are breeders (not sure on quality), for Silver Grey Dorkings, Plymouth Rocks, Rhode Island Reds, and Sussex. I think there is a Hamburg breeder about 1.5 hours from me. I suspect it was one of his cocks that I saw at the county fair in the APA-sanctioned show. The cock made hatchery Hamburgs look like bantams. I will look through my APA yearbook to see what else I can turn up.

 

[NanaKat]

Thank you both for your forthright replies! Yesterday I was running on 3 nights in a row of poor sleep (courtesy a teething baby) and attempting to type something coherent on a phone. So my apologies for my list not making much sense. Let me (attempt) to clarify now that I'm on my computer and have had some decent sleep. If it still doesn't make sense then please let me know!

I fully recognize that a layer breed will be best suited to my needs. A large quantity of eggs is most important for our uses. I am aware that the best layer breeds are non-sitters and broodiness was more of a concern if I were to select a dual-purpose breed.

As far as meat, which I think is probably the part that came across as the most confusing, I would prefer to butcher out broilers and fryers (age-wise). For the fast growing layer breeds they've usually hit their peak growth in those age ranges, correct? Obviously they are not going to yield a lot of meat, but I only put a whole roast chicken on the table 1 or 2 times in a year. We prefer chicken prepared on the bbq, fried, or served in old-fashioned dishes like pot pie. Since the breeds I'm interested in require a lot of work there will definitely be a lot of culling and so there will be plenty of meat for our uses (one way or another). I have cull ducks and geese for meat too.

My great-grandfather raised and bred White Leghorns. The Leghorns were their main source of eggs and meat; also their primary source of income. From what I understand they ran a hatchery and, besides doing custom hatching, they sold White Leghorns all over the country. My grandpa was telling me about the kerosene-powered incubators and getting a special light from the postmaster that they would take to the train tracks and wave around to stop the mail train so they could load up their shipments.


Yellow House Farm, in answer to some of the things you mentioned:

The layer flock will ultimately be getting culled down to 4 of my daughter's chickens, 3 bantams and a Hamburg-cross that she's extremely attached too. They will all be moving to a coop down by the house where she can spend more time with them.

Are the Houdans, Sultans, and Redcaps too far gone to revive at this point? I will happily settle down with one breed at this point. I'm tired of fooling around and spinning my wheels.


Sydney Acres, in answer to some of the things you mentioned:

Your first paragraph is sort of what I was going for in regards to meat. I think I've done a better job of clarifying what I was trying to say above.

My daughter does like Silkies - maybe I will try and encourage her in that direction.

How far out do you consider "local"? There is a "breeder" outside of the same town as me. She raises something like 20 breeds, so I'm not sure that her stock would be any improvement over hatchery. Within 40 minutes there are breeders (not sure on quality), for Silver Grey Dorkings, Plymouth Rocks, Rhode Island Reds, and Sussex. I think there is a Hamburg breeder about 1.5 hours from me. I suspect it was one of his cocks that I saw at the county fair in the APA-sanctioned show. The cock made hatchery Hamburgs look like bantams. I will look through my APA yearbook to see what else I can turn up.

While not on your list, Wyandotte offer much of what you are contemplating. The color varieties are described in your SOP. The Wyandotte Breeders of America has a directory of breeders. PM me and I'll share info on breeders in or near Oregon.
Hens are good layers of nice sized light brown eggs even in winter, do go broody and make great mothers. Pullets begin laying around 5-7 months.
Cockerels make nice fryers, bbq, and meat for pies and noodles. Cock birds are good tempered, good guardians of both hens and chicks.
Older birds dress out nicely as brined or stewed.

 

[Sydney Acres]

A real keyboard and some sleep can make all the difference in the world!

Everyone has a different definition, but to me "local" is more a matter of access than of distance. Some people don't like to travel and want someone within 20 minutes of their house. Other people are fine with an 8 hour drive or more. It just depends on what type of help you're going to need, and whether you and your mentor can effectively communicate via the internet, or phone, or if personal meeting are needed. It also depends of whether you want to see a sellers flock before purchase of your breeders, and whether you are comfortable having young adult birds shipped, or whether you want to start with chicks/eggs, and can find a good quality breeder who is willing to sell you anything other than young selected breeders.

It might be a good idea for you to keep your options open until you can attend a "local" major poultry show. Look at the different breeds, talk to the different breeders, and see what is available and how the seller might be able to mentor you. Once you find the type of bird you want paired with a compatible breeder willing to advise you, you'll be glad you waited for the right match to come around.

 

[MagicChicken]

Thank you both for your forthright replies! Yesterday I was running on 3 nights in a row of poor sleep (courtesy a teething baby) and attempting to type something coherent on a phone. So my apologies for my list not making much sense. Let me (attempt) to clarify now that I'm on my computer and have had some decent sleep. If it still doesn't make sense then please let me know!

I fully recognize that a layer breed will be best suited to my needs. A large quantity of eggs is most important for our uses. I am aware that the best layer breeds are non-sitters and broodiness was more of a concern if I were to select a dual-purpose breed.

As far as meat, which I think is probably the part that came across as the most confusing, I would prefer to butcher out broilers and fryers (age-wise). For the fast growing layer breeds they've usually hit their peak growth in those age ranges, correct? Obviously they are not going to yield a lot of meat, but I only put a whole roast chicken on the table 1 or 2 times in a year. We prefer chicken prepared on the bbq, fried, or served in old-fashioned dishes like pot pie. Since the breeds I'm interested in require a lot of work there will definitely be a lot of culling and so there will be plenty of meat for our uses (one way or another). I have cull ducks and geese for meat too.

My great-grandfather raised and bred White Leghorns. The Leghorns were their main source of eggs and meat; also their primary source of income. From what I understand they ran a hatchery and, besides doing custom hatching, they sold White Leghorns all over the country. My grandpa was telling me about the kerosene-powered incubators and getting a special light from the postmaster that they would take to the train tracks and wave around to stop the mail train so they could load up their shipments.


Yellow House Farm, in answer to some of the things you mentioned:

The layer flock will ultimately be getting culled down to 4 of my daughter's chickens, 3 bantams and a Hamburg-cross that she's extremely attached too. They will all be moving to a coop down by the house where she can spend more time with them.

Are the Houdans, Sultans, and Redcaps too far gone to revive at this point? I will happily settle down with one breed at this point. I'm tired of fooling around and spinning my wheels.


Sydney Acres, in answer to some of the things you mentioned:

Your first paragraph is sort of what I was going for in regards to meat. I think I've done a better job of clarifying what I was trying to say above.

My daughter does like Silkies - maybe I will try and encourage her in that direction.

How far out do you consider "local"? There is a "breeder" outside of the same town as me. She raises something like 20 breeds, so I'm not sure that her stock would be any improvement over hatchery. Within 40 minutes there are breeders (not sure on quality), for Silver Grey Dorkings, Plymouth Rocks, Rhode Island Reds, and Sussex. I think there is a Hamburg breeder about 1.5 hours from me. I suspect it was one of his cocks that I saw at the county fair in the APA-sanctioned show. The cock made hatchery Hamburgs look like bantams. I will look through my APA yearbook to see what else I can turn up.

One other thing to consider is the difficulty of breeding certain color patterns. You might want to start with a solid color variety - white or black - so you can get the breed's body type down before having to deal with the complications of color and pattern. I picked a black breed thinking the color part would be simple. Turns out it isn't simple. But it's a whole lot easier than having to deal with a more complex color pattern. In the long run it doesn't matter what breed you pick because the breed will either work for you or you will have lots of eggs and meat and will move on to some other breed when the time comes. It's all good.