Advice Needed! Horse/Mule

[Welshies]

So I train horses, ponies, mules for others. However, in order to be accepted into our 30-day programs, they must be vaccinated prior to drop off and a contract signed.
I have someone who has a mule that is absolutely terrified of being touched. It sounds like she was formerly abused, and in order to be caught she needs to be roped. I really want to work with her and I'm sure I could help her.
BUT
I plam on using the join-up method... do it work with mules...
AND
She is not vaccinated, and I doubt they'll be willing to vaccinate her. I was thinking I could do weekly sessions at the local indoor arena, if her owner was willing. Would that work?

 

[res]

So they can't catch her, but they can trailer her to the local indoor???? Will the local indoor even allow her on premises without vaccines? I know I won't let a horse into my indoor without POV.

 

[Welshies]

So they can't catch her, but they can trailer her to the local indoor???? Will the local indoor even allow her on premises without vaccines? I know I won't let a horse into my indoor without POV.

Hmm, true. We won't accept her on our property without vaccinations. I never thought about the indoor's rules! I feel so dumb now!

 

[Zoomie]

I'm thinking about the getting her vaccinated part. If they can get her in a trailer, or squeeze chute or some other very controlled situation, maybe a vet could vaccinate her by use of a pole or something? Then at least she'd be able to go places to get some help.

Thank you for standing up about vaccinations.

As far as I know, mules are very trainable by the natural horsemanship methods. I did see Ray Hunt work with several mules. I don't recall him doing anything different with them.

 

[Welshies]

I'm thinking about the getting her vaccinated part. If they can get her in a trailer, or squeeze chute or some other very controlled situation, maybe a vet could vaccinate her by use of a pole or something? Then at least she'd be able to go places to get some help.

Thank you for standing up about vaccinations.

As far as I know, mules are very trainable by the natural horsemanship methods. I did see Ray Hunt work with several mules. I don't recall him doing anything different with them.

Thank you for your input.
So far, I have tons of demand, but I would really love to try and fit her in.
I do believe I could make a huge difference, with patience.
He is looking at getting her vaccinated, and I'll see if I can pick her up either February or March. I am losing spaces so fast, though.
I have one horse already for sure coming, in February, but I didn't make her make a booking as it's two weeks away. I have one guy wanting me to work with a horse for 3 months starting March, so I didn't make him pay the booking fee (as we have a discount offer where 3 or more months of work in our facility means you can reserve a spot without a fee).
But they are going quickly.

 

[Bunnylady]

The first thing you have to remember is that a mule is not a horse. They are only half horse, and a lot of what they are working with is a donkey brain. Have you heard the expression, "a horse is smart, a donkey is smarter, a mule is smarter than you?" BELIEVE IT!!

A mule has the donkey's sense of self-preservation, a donkey's "fight" combined with a good dose of a horse's flightiness. They have memories that will put an elephant to shame. If a mule thinks something isn't safe, it will not do it; it may fight you to the death rather than just submit. Mules insist on thinking for themselves; if you want one to work with you, you have to earn its trust first.

This particular animal has learned not to trust, so the last thing you want to do is reinforce that. If you want to work her in a round pen, I would definitely skip the whip. You will have to be hyper-aware of your body language; she will read you better than any horse you have ever worked with. Like most brilliant animals, she will also get bored very quickly; while lots of repetition may make a reliable horse, it makes for a mule that gets "creative" and develops behaviors that have to be "un-learned."

I firmly believe that learning to see the world through the wise eyes of a mule will make anyone a better horseman; you may find that you learn more from her than she does from you.

Incidentally, I have heard from several veterinarians that they always cringe a bit when they learn they are going to be dealing with a mule; some never learn to take shots well.

 

[Welshies]

The first thing you have to remember is that a mule is not a horse. They are only half horse, and a lot of what they are working with is a donkey brain. Have you heard the expression, "a horse is smart, but a mule is smarter than you?" BELIEVE IT!!

A mule has the donkey's sense of self-preservation, a donkey's "fight" combined with a good dose of a horse's flightiness. They have memories that will put an elephant to shame. If a mule thinks something isn't safe, it will not do it; it may fight you to the death rather than just submit. Mules insist on thinking for themselves; if you want one to work with you, you have to earn its trust first.

This particular animal has learned not to trust, so the last thing you want to do is reinforce that. If you want to work her in a round pen, I would definitely skip the whip. You will have to be hyper-aware of your body language; she will read you better than any horse you have ever worked with. Like most brilliant animals, she will also get bored very quickly; while lots of repetition may make a reliable horse, it makes for a mule that gets "creative" and develops behaviors that have to be "un-learned."

I firmly believe that learning to see the world through the wise eyes of a mule will make anyone a better horseman; you may find that you learn more from her than she does from you.

Incidentally, I have heard from several veterinarians that they always cringe a bit when they learn they are going to be dealing with a mule; some never learn to take shots well.

Oh, I totally understand what you are saying. Mules are very different.
I really want to help the poor girl, though. I love animals and I hate to imagine one being afraid every day of its life. The guy literally has to rope her to catch her- like a cow. It must be hard.
I think persistence is my best option; I may have to try a variety of methods. I can try my join-up method (mine is a bit different than what you see on TV), but it may not work on her, and if it doesn't, fine. I listen rather than speak to the horses. They pick the training method that works for them, and I try to work with them. In the end, it's really up to the animal if it will move forward, or not.

 

[Bunnylady]

I really want to help the poor girl, though. I love animals and I hate to imagine one being afraid every day of its life.

At this point I have to wonder if it's genuine fear, or just a conditioned avoidance behavior ("if I run away, I don't have to ________"). A lot of the trainers who use the natural horsemanship methods would say it doesn't really matter, and break the behavior down to its most basic level - the animal is given a choice, and it is rewarding itself by making what from your perspective is the "wrong" choice. It has been making this choice for a while, which means you may have to work on this for a while before the animal realizes, "hey, this choice isn't getting me the rewards any more, maybe I need to rethink this."

My concern runs in another direction, and it is simply practical. Some animals may live their entire lives as pasture ornaments, but there aren't many that get that luxury. People run out of money, or patience, or for whatever reason decide it just isn't working for them any more. An animal that behaves well may not always get treated well, but its chances are much better. An animal that can't be handled is pretty much useless, and around here, useless animals often wind up making a long, miserable trip to a Mexican slaughterhouse. Short of having them put down myself, I can't insure that mine will never have that happen, but I can at least give them a good shot at being valued by their next owner, should necessity mean that there is one.

 

[Welshies]

At this point I have to wonder if it's genuine fear, or just a conditioned avoidance behavior ("if I run away, I don't have to ________"). A lot of the trainers who use the natural horsemanship methods would say it doesn't really matter, and break the behavior down to its most basic level - the animal is given a choice, and it is rewarding itself by making what from your perspective is the "wrong" choice. It has been making this choice for a while, which means you may have to work on this for a while before the animal realizes, "hey, this choice isn't getting me the rewards any more, maybe I need to rethink this."

My concern runs in another direction, and it is simply practical. Some animals may live their entire lives as pasture ornaments, but there aren't many that get that luxury. People run out of money, or patience, or for whatever reason decide it just isn't working for them any more. An animal that behaves well may not always get treated well, but its chances are much better. An animal that can't be handled is pretty much useless, and around here, useless animals often wind up making a long, miserable trip to a Mexican slaughterhouse. Short of having them put down myself, I can't insure that mine will never have that happen, but I can at least give them a good shot at being valued by their next owner, should necessity mean that there is one.

I agree. I do however think she was abused. The owner never said so, but he said she can't be touched and has to be roped to be caught. Sounds pretty scared to me.
The guy plans to sell her if he can't fix her. She was used for packing, and will be, but only if he can touch her.

 

[Kusanar]

I agree. I do however think she was abused. The owner never said so, but he said she can't be touched and has to be roped to be caught. Sounds pretty scared to me.
The guy plans to sell her if he can't fix her. She was used for packing, and will be, but only if he can touch her.

I have a mini that wasn't abused, but when I got him, he hadn't been touched in 3 years simply because he didn't want to be touched. You tried to touch him and he would trot away, couldn't even loure him over with treats... Before we took him to my barn, we needed to vaccinate him and get his coggins test pulled, so, we had to get our hands on him. It took us 3 hours of chasing that pony around the field and trying to corner him before we finally got him.... It took over an hour the next time when the vet was there, so it was the girl that owned him, the vet, me, and the vets dog all chasing him and trying to corner him for an hour because the stubborn brat didn't want to be touched...

I had to do that at my place too some, but I have a barn I could run him into and shut the door which made it easier to catch him. Long story short, he doesn't like human attention and found that to avoid it, all he had to do was run away because that is what had worked for the past 3 years. Once he was at my place, I made a point of catching him at least once a day, so he learned that running away from me just meant he was tired when I caught him because I wouldn't stop until I got my hands on him, so he got easier to catch. He STILL doesn't want to be touched, you walk up and he takes a step away and sometimes leaves entirely and has to be chased. I don't catch him daily anymore, but, if I walk by him and he runs away, or I try to walk over and give him a scratch and he walks away, then I do whatever is necessary to catch him and give him a good scratch down (so a reward once caught because he DOES have an itchy chest he likes having scratched).

I mostly let my horses choose their lessons, they run away when I walk up, they get a lesson or 2 on catching nicely and easily. They are rude when I have feed, they get a lesson on how the feed, even in their dish, is my food and I allow them to eat it. At any point I expect to be able to move my horses out of a feed dish and have them stand politely until I let them go back.