All flock vs layer feed??

[chayes04]

So we’ve got a mixed flock, 2 Roos, 4 hens, and 4 pullets (about 17-18 weeks roughly)

We recently integrated our pullets into the flock. The younger ladies have been on chick starter but since being in with everyone else, they’ve been eating the layer feed.

1. Is it safe for our younger ladies to eat the layer feed? If not, will having chick starter available make a difference?

2. We’re switching over to all flock feed because I’ve seen some different posts about the calcium content in layer feed being bad for our boys kidney? I’d rather be safe than sorry. Can anyone explain the nutritional information behind this?? (We’ll be feeding back egg shells for our girls for extra calcium)

 

[NatJ]

The label for the Purina Gold'n feed says 1% calcium. It is manufactured in Canada, perhaps a different mix?

I wonder if "Gold'n" might be a name for a whole line of foods, instead of just one specific product. Does the label also say something about starter, or grower, or all-purpose, or something of the sort?

1% calcium is a good amount for a mixed flock.

Natj and u_stormcrow also said All Flock. I will visit my local feed store and do some label reading. I like the 20% protein, better during the winter.

All Flock is nutritionally about the same as chick starter, just another label for almost the same product.

There seem to be more and more "different" kinds of chicken food recently, but most of them can still be sorted into two basic groups: layer feed (high calcium) and everything else (low calcium, and usually with more protein than the layer feeds have.)

Reading the protein & calcium percentages can be more informative than reading the big letters on the front of the bag

 

[U_Stormcrow]

It all comes down to averages. Let's say you have a "typical" starter/grower feed at 18% crude protein, with Met at 0.3% and Lys at 0.7%, and we'll pretend further you are picking it up at $50/25kg, or $2/kg. Your ground flax is $3.6/kg.

Lets imagine that you desire to bring your met levels up to 0.4 and your Lys to 0.8 if you can, because you aren't happy with your hatchlings' growth. In order to turn your 18-/0.3-/0.7 grower into something/0.4-/0.8 you would have to mix your feed 1:1 with the flax seed. You'd end up at about 20.5% crude protein (close enough), 0.39% Met (close enough), and 0.84% Lysine (high is fine). You've now raised your feed price from $2/kg to $2.8/kg, a 40% increase, while raising the fat content of the feed to something close to 20% (dangerous levels). I don't think anyone would look at that and think it makes sense to do that.

Additionally, you have to consider that Flax contains a B-6 antagonist, and similar to oats, has water soluable fibers which form muscilage which slows digestion, coats the intestines, and blocks nutrient intake. It also has to be processed correctly, or it can make cyanide compounds (we'll assume the feed store gets properly processed seed - heat treatment prevents it, it doesn't require anything fancy)

So, since the top example is right out, lets pretend you instead treat linseed like a "treat" and add 1 part linseed to 10 parts feed (using same numbers as above). Your new feed is about 18.5% protein, around 6% fat (fine), 0.32% Met, 0.72% Lys (no, those aren't much improvement, and you'd have to raise and measure a lot of birds before you could show a difference). Your feed costs are jow $2,15/kg, about a 7% increase, and that 25kg of linseed will last you 250kg of feed - depending on flock size, even with stabilizers - you could be looking at rancid linseed before its used up.

and that, in a nutshell, is why I don't recommend people try to reformulate commercial feeds by adding ingredients at home. Even with "good" ingredients, its hard to do well, because there are no perfect ingredients. Far easier and often cheaper to simply find a better feed (for most of us).

Linseed's relatively high fat content, B6 blocker, and mucous-forming carbs (can be addressed by enzymes) work best when the feed was designed around inclusion of a significant quantity (up to 10%) of them, by then selecting other very low fat ingredient for inclusion where possible, and including ingredients high in B6 and/or ingredients which might naturally provide the needed enzymes to speed breakdown of the mucilage (buckwheat, I think, might have it, I know a number of bacteria or yeast extracts will do it).

 

[Ted Brown]

I bought my second 2 bags of the Purina non medicated Start & Grow this morning. Comes in a white bag, no brand or other marking on it but sewn in label gives details incl. brand and nutrients.

It is $24.15 for 25kg, about a dollar mere than I have been spending.

 

[NatJ]

So we’ve got a mixed flock, 2 Roos, 4 hens, and 4 pullets (about 17-18 weeks roughly)

We recently integrated our pullets into the flock. The younger ladies have been on chick starter but since being in with everyone else, they’ve been eating the layer feed.

1. Is it safe for our younger ladies to eat the layer feed? If not, will having chick starter available make a difference?

Given the age of the pullets, layer feed will probably be fine.

If you put out chick starter too, all the chickens will probably eat it. That will not hurt any of them, but you do need to be sure there is a separate source of calcium so the layers can get enough (a dish of free-choice oyster shell usually works well. Chickens tend to be good at eating the right amount for their own needs.)

2. We’re switching over to all flock feed because I’ve seen some different posts about the calcium content in layer feed being bad for our boys kidney? I’d rather be safe than sorry. Can anyone explain the nutritional information behind this?? (We’ll be feeding back egg shells for our girls for extra calcium)

Laying hens need about three times as much calcium as any other chickens. If layer feed has the right amount of calcium for the layers, then it has much more than the males need.

All Flock or Chick Starter is fine for chicks, fine for males of any age, fine for non-laying hens, and almost fine for laying hens. The laying hens need an additional source of calcium.

Feeding back the egg shells from their own eggs is fine, but will not provide enough calcium for the layers. You will need to provide oyster shell as well, or else get more eggshells. They should have a calcium source (oyster shell or eggshell) available at all times, never running out.

I think of it this way:
--all flock has about 1/3 of the calcium a hen needs each day
--eating the shell from 1 egg provides about 1/3 of the calcium a hen needs each day
--That means the hen has 2/3 of the calcium she needs for the day, but still needs more (from oyster shell, or from eating more eggshells.)

(I looked up all the numbers at some point, figured it out in detail, and then remembered the simple version while forgetting the exact numbers.)

 

[aart]

I will switch to the Purina Gold'n for everyone and depend on the side dish of oyster shells for my hens.

That's got 4% calcium...it's a layer feed.

I've used a 20% all flock type(1-2% calcium) feed for all my birds for 10 years,
with Oyster Shell in a separate dispenser for the active layers.
Remember your older birds will stop laying for winter, they won't need that extra calcium then..

 

[Ted Brown]

That's got 4% calcium...it's a layer feed.
...

The label for the Purina Gold'n feed says 1% calcium. It is manufactured in Canada, perhaps a different mix?

Natj and u_stormcrow also said All Flock. I will visit my local feed store and do some label reading. I like the 20% protein, better during the winter.

I appreciate the heads up!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

^ I'm with @NatJ on that. "Branding" far less important than the guaranteed nutritional label.

During the Pandemic, many of us used things labeld "Grower" or "Starter" when we couldn't get All Flock / Flock Raiser, and plenty of others used Flock Raiser / All Flock when they couldn't find Starter. How its marketed is merely suggestive. Like Quiche - can be served for breakfast, lunch or dinner - the underpinnings are essentially identical regardless.

 

[Ted Brown]

@NatJ the label says for chickens, turkeys and ducks so guessing it is an All Flock.

I will visit my feed store, have a discussion with the staff and do some label reading. As noted the higher protein is of interest as we get cold, long winters.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes, it will definitely work for that.

Flax is a "superfood buzzword" mostly. But not entirely. As a seed, its a nutritionally dense source. Considerably better than the often included Sunflower seed in terms of crude protein, roughly on par with hemp and sesame. Slightly higher fiber than sesame, still lower than hemp or sunflower. Very close in fat levels to hemp, less than sesame or sunflower.

Usually not much included (except as a buzzword on the bag) because its expensive, but it does have a good AA profile overall, providing more Met, Lys, Thre, and Tryp than an equal weight of unshelled BOSS (and likely sheleed BOSS, too). Also, a good source of Omega-3s, some of which will make it to the egg. Sadly, its tiny - and loww volume to surface area means its fats go rancid faster than larger seeds.

But like I said, its expensive, so typically included (if at all) in very small amounts, where it makes little difference. What can I say, no perfect answers, just trade offs.

Anyhow, hope that helps!