Amino Acid Requirements--Adult Hen?

[EuroChook]

On Dr. Jacquie Kennedy, she has never researched, nor has she ever written as an academic on lupin use. Her PhD and BSc were not attained on that topic.

Her professional profile is here:

https://afs.ca.uky.edu/person/Jacob

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes. I read the first one. Thank you for the link. She admits the toxic content of lupins. She suggests so-called Sweet lupins (with lowered alkaloid levels) are relatively safe. But once again verifies lupins are essentially toxic, as further confirmed here:

https://chickendvm.com/poisonous/lupines

But then further research declares not even all sweet lupins to be safe:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11372712/

with the conclusion being: "Based on the present results, it can be stated that high levels of some varieties of sweet lupines in broiler diets may cause significant adverse effects manifested as 1) decreased feed intake and growth rate in most of the birds, and 2) specific signs of acute and chronic toxicity... "

In synthesis of pros and cons, it appears that so-named blue lupins are safer:

"Inclusion of blue lupins in the diet of laying hens at a rate of 150 g/kg DM resulted in no adverse effects in production or hen health and could be used as part of a balanced ration..."

(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451943X16300096).

which then would mean a 15% lupin presence.
Double that, 30% blue lupin is suggested in alternative results here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7082746/

So yes, they are testifiably toxic. As for the heavily optimistic Dr. Jacquie Kennedy when she writes at poultry.extension she does so without peer review and does not make a statement at any point declaring she has no personal stake invested in the outcome of her viewpoint, which is the least moderate of viewpoints around. Hence we wonder why?

As to the riverina link (and thanks again for these) no sources are cited at all to verify claims. A vague line appears saying, "REF ..." then gives a name and dates it 1985. If the meaning there is that data is 38 years old, we would have to deeply query this data, and it definitely would not be admissible as a primary reference for a research piece now.

This one, also from Australia, refers only to cattle and sheep, but also gives the conditions under which blue lupins are also toxic:

https://keys.lucidcentral.org/keys/v3/pastures/Html/Blue_lupin.htm

Summing up, all lupins are toxic. Blue lupins among the sweet category seem to carry less risk. But liberal use must be absolutely avoided.

Personally, I don't want lupins in my diet per se. I wouldn't like to consume food raised on a lupin diet. One is free to do what they are convinced they should do. But puritanical I won't be giving lupins to chickens.

As with everything else, the dosage is the poison. But yes, always important to understand the limits of your ingredients, and what can be done to make their nutrition more bioavalable and / or to minimize antinutritive concerns.

 

[Perris]

FWIW, I guess I travelled the same sort of path years ago and as a result sowed a few blue lupins about the place. Three are still with us. My chickens choose not to consume any part of them.

 

[EuroChook]

As with everything else, the dosage is the poison. But yes, always important to understand the limits of your ingredients, and what can be done to make their nutrition more bioavalable and / or to minimize antinutritive concerns.

Oh certainly. And it's much harder to be poisoned if the dosage is 0.

 

[SourRoses]

Oh certainly. And it's much harder to be poisoned if the dosage is 0.

Whispers from the corner...
There are feed ingredients commonly used which must not exceed a certain percentage for toxicity / antinutritional concerns, and / or must be cooked or fermented first. But we likely couldn't comprise a balanced diet without them.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I have been feeding some Lupins for a couple of months now, and haven't seen any adverse side effects yet.
They are cracked, which means all the shell falls off, and doesn't get eaten so maybe that helps? I can let you know if I do see any problems, if you like?

Definitely helps. The biggest concern in lubins comes from the fiber. Dehulling removes a significant portion of that concern. Enzymes can then improve things further, which you may - or may not - be getting from other feed ingredients or natural bacteria if you ferment. Which enzymes are most effective is something not well described (or perhaps it is, but I lack the biochemistry knowledge? to make sense of it) in most of the limited literature that I've skimmed.

 

[Sussex19]

. Enzymes can then improve things further, which you may - or may not - be getting from other feed ingredients or natural bacteria if you ferment.

What feeds have enzymes in them? And I don't ferment it, but I could, so that might be something I should do.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Plenty of feeds have enzymes in them, usually because they were included in the vitamin premix that was used. Sprouting unlocks enzymes too - its nature's way of "unpacking" those nutrient dense seeds.

Consider, for example, this as one example of using enzymes to break down some of the more problematic enzymes in lupins. You should recognize one of them immediately - papain. It comes from papayas. Pineapple is another good source of protein denaturing enzymes. Guaza, too, if you have the climate. A number of the other enzymes used in this study came from Bacillus subtilis, present in most soil, your intestines, and a host of other places. and yes, its safe to introduce that bacteria directly to your dinosaurs, if that's what you want to do.

 

[Sic]

Why are our chickens the last species on earth for which this information is readily accessible, commonplace? I've got no good information anywhere as I try to update any scant existing info on it. What do you give a broiler (not a chick, adult hen, non-laying) in terms of protein? How much of these does she need please?


arginine
isoleucine
leucine
lysine
methionine
phenylalanine
threonine
tryptophan
valine

There is a book you might find helpful, you can download it free here https://nap.nationalacademies.org/download/2114
It's Nutrient Requirements of Poultry, it covers chickens, turkey, quail, and waterfowl, as well as covering signs of nutrient deficiencies. Somewhat dated, yet I found it quite helpful.

 

[EddieSalita]

My ears were burning..... hehe..... so i thought i would update on my lupin based diy recipe progress here.

My girls are doing great on their lupin based recipe. None of the effects mentioned here have been observed so far. I estimate approximately 50% of their intake is this feed. On average (a flock of 15) they will consume 75 dry grams each per day. I have refined my recipe and method somewhat. I crack micronised (heat treated to reduce toxins) lupins I a woodchipper. Then ferment for 24-72 hrs before feeding. I scoop off the floating bits as the detached lupin skins float, the lupin itself does not.
I have also added some finch feed (a variety of different millets and some linseed mainly) to the mix for an extra source of minerals and nutrients. The feed comes out at 17% protien.
The rest of their diet is 25 grams each (on average) of 28% chick crumble fed as treats then kitchen scraps and excellent free range forage..... large variety of greens (chickweed especially is going crazy atm) and lots of bugs, skinks, toads. The grasshopper explosion will commence in the coming weeks.
They get plenty of meat and dairy scraps to help with any met that may be lacking. Also a couple tins of sardines and some walnuts as treats each week.
Approaching the end of winter.... their condition is excellent. No reduction in egg production according to my records. One (white leghorn over rhode Island white) has even decided to go broody and is 2 weeks into hatching a dozen eggs. Their shell grit consumption has gone up significantly..... which is to be expected.

I'm still trying to source a decent vitamin pre mix. It's proving challenging. As soon as I do they will be on 100% this diet.

I don't save money doing it. But if you don't include the sardines and walnuts it's the same cost as a middle range layer feed.

I grow too much papaya so the chooks regularly get some as scraps. They also love their bananas and mangoes which are grown by me in abundance. I am also in a big pineapple growing area.... so pineapple skins and cores are a regular scraps item which they love. They are getting lots of loquats atm also.

I believe Tyramine is one of the denaturing enzymes/amines. Aged cheese and pineapple are both excellent sources of it. Along with other fermented foods and citrus to a lesser extent. Bromelain is another. I will try to find my source for that. It was years ago.
Interestingly tyramine can often be contraindicated in combination with mono amine oxidase inhibitors (maoi) in humans. Sometimes leading to elevated blood pressure. Somehow the mao is involved in its digestion, once inhibited tyramine can cause problems.