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[SpeckledRoo]

I agree with both Speckledhen and Tailfeathers. The first churches were in the homes of believers and as they began to grow and were free to practice their faith they established buildings where larger groups could meet. Those who desired the office of a Bishop and met the qualifications along with deacons were placed in charge of teaching leading those believers in matters of faith.

The problem is that over time the so-called church began to think it was more important than the Word it was there to uphold. I was told by one such organization that the Bible exists because of the church. I beg to differ. The church exists because of the Bible. Without the Bible there is no church. Bible knowledge exists because of home study. This is why many are against it. There are even laws in some states which restrict the home Bible study because the organized church fears the people learning too much Bible which will make them question the church's authority over them.

Tailfeathers you said,

Clearly Jesus, Paul, and others are referring to a specific body of believers where God has ordained a specific "offices", if you will, to govern the body and given specific gifts to the various members of the body. Even in the Old Testament we read a very detailed account of the building of the tabernacle with specific regimens that paints a picture of a "meeting place" between God and man. There is a significant difference between "church" and a gathering of Believers at, for example, a Home Fellowship Group or Bible Study.

We have no gifts today which is evident by the fact that a gift from God would be without error. The gifts were done away with when the Word without error was completed by the Apostle Paul. Offices were created, not to rule but to guide and instruct. As far as the Old Testament is concerned, God established Priests and Judges to rule the people, to make them understand the law.

Neh 8:4-8
4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.
5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

We are not under the Law, but under Grace. When I read scripture and history, I find most of the error, not in the home church, but in the established church and in its rules which discourage questions.​

 

[joe17]

I am christian also!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tailfeathers]

SpeckledRoo makes a great point when he says the leaders of the church are there to guide and instruct us - not to rule. I got to thinking that maybe what I had previously wrote could be construed to say that I think church leaders should rule over their people. Rule yes but in the same way that Jesus did. While at the same time there much be an attitude and subsequent behavior of submission on the part of those under that leadership. Fail to recognize and submit to the leadership of those God has given as Shepherd's may be a sign of rebellion and a heart that is not right with God.

And I think it needs to be said that no amount of church attendance should ever take away from the preeminent responsibility of each Believer to spend their own time studying The Word of God. Not just reading it - which undoubtedly has a tremendous affect on a person as well - but "studying" it - or better yet as the Bible says "meditating" on it. Now that is not a call to cross one's legs, fold your arms, and hum some chant while thinking about God but rather it is much more. I have read several commentaries who define the Hebrew and Greek words more as a "chewing the cud" sort of thing. One takes the Word, chews it, swallows it, brings it back up, chews it some more, swallows it, and then starts the whole process over and over again until the Word is pretty much totally dissolved and easily absorbed into the heart.

SpeckledRoo, actually gifts have not been done away with and there is nothing in Scripture that would substantiate that they have. The "Pre-Bible" folks referred to who had gifts were every bit as much human and imperfect as we are today. So the idea that the gifts they performed would have somehow been "without error" because they didn't have the Bible just doesn't hold water. I am assuming that you are referring to 1st Cor. 13:10 when you say "The gifts were done away with when the Word without error was completed by the Apostle Paul." This is an often (I don't want to say "common") applied misrepresentation of what is being said and even more unfortunately often taught interpretation of the verse. The word "perfect" there is the Greek "Teleios" from the root "Telos" which means the end. Thus Paul is saying that when Jesus the Perfect One comes again and brings The End to that which is imperfect there will be no need for spiritual gifts any longer because we will all be in His presence and have our glorified bodies. Scripture is clear that each member of The Body has been given gifts for the edification of The Body as a whole and Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit gives whatever gifts He chooses to each according to His will and that which will most edify The Body.

Lastly, I would just like to address the issue which is at the heart of the matter that started this discussion and deals primarily with the principal that one needs to look at. The statement, "When I read scripture and history, I find most of the error, not in the home church, but in the established church and in its rules which discourage questions." implies that one can find more truth in a small "home church" gathering than in a large, oh say, Mega church. I disagree wholeheartedly with that premise. Truth is truth. The number of people does not change the Truth.

What does change however is who decides what the Truth is. One of the reasons why we have so many churches in this country with varying beliefs is because there is a tendency to go somewhere else when you don't like what you're hearing. I submit that if you are in a church where you are not allowed to ask questions then by all means you should find one where you are allowed to do so. The Disciples asked Jesus a lot of questions, didn't they? Moreover, if you are in a church that is teaching blatant heresy and some other gospel than the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, then let them be accursed - BUT go find a Bible believing church where you can be taught and instructed in the true Living Word of God. It is far to easy to find a small number of like-minded people and say decide to start your own church. I'm not saying this is always the case but that mindset comes perilously close to being your own god and setting yourself up as the final authority. You would then get to decide how to "interpret" whatever. I would also submit that you better be doggone certain the God has called you to be the minister or leader of such.

Even a small church home should have a leader that can be the "Head" of that church. Anything with no head is dead and anything with more than one head is a monster. The problem we are seeing today is not because we have too many churches. The problem is because we have too many people bunny hopping from church to church until they can find one that let's them hear what they want to hear or where they feel "comfortable". To tell you the truth, if I'm not feeling uncomfortable at church, I'm probably not at the right church because I get pretty uncomfortable when the Holy Spirit convicts me through the teach of His Word that I need to confess and repent of some sin. Besides, there is NO perfect church. It's like the sign says, "If you find the perfect church DON'T GO TO IT because you'll ruin it and it won't be perfect anymore."

So I would just say the emphasis ought not to be how big or how small a church is. Nor should it even be whether or not you agree with everything that is said and done. But rather is it a Bible Believing - and what's more - a Bible practicing church? Are they preaching the one true God and the one true Gospel? Do they believe in the essentials of the Faith? Do they believe the Bible is the final authority and the infallible, inerrant, inspired Word of God? Do they believe that they can do something to save someone or that it is a work of God? In other words, can enough pizza parties, concerts, or whatever else that might be attractive "win somebody to the Lord" or do they believe that an Unbeliever is an Enemy of God, a spiritually dead man, who is blind to the Truth and doesn't even want to see or hear it but by the Grace of God only He can open their eyes and give them life? How do they deal with the issue of sin? If they have a member who has left their spouse without any Biblical grounds for doing so, do they deal with that according to the Bible or just accept it?

I could go on and on but maybe the simplest way to say it is to ask, "Do they look like The World or do they look a whole lot like Christ?" The Biblical Christ. So it's not how big or how small and it's not about how fancy or how plain. It's about whether "the church" is following Christ themselves in obedience to Him and whether we are willing to submit to that or find a way to have it our own way. The way we like it.

That's Burger King Christianity or buffet-style/cafeteria Christianity. I'll take some love, and some mercy. Oh look, don't those blessings look good! Better have some of that. Gotta throw some grace on the plate. Oh golly, how am I gonna fit some of that abundant life on here now. Well, I'll just do without the obedience. Naw, better forget the dying to myself and put on a little forgiveness. I'll have to pass on the being a slave to a master but I want a big slice of those Heavenly Rewards. Trials and Tribulations? Well, I know it's probably good for me but I'll pass. Hated by others? Now why would I want any of that? That's certainly can't be any good for me. A spanking from the Lord? Oh my, of course not. Can't have any of that.

So how do you know if you've found the right church? I certainly can't tell you but I bet the Holy Spirit will. I know I've found a good one. I certainly haven't swallowed everything they say and doubtful I will. Like I said, there ain't no perfect church - otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to come. I think you'll have a pretty good indication that you've found it when The Flesh is screaming "I gotta get out of here!" and The Spirit inside of you is saying, "Yes!" When you don't like what you're hearing but you know it's truth - you've probably found such a place. When the teachings are pure, unvarnished, unwatered down, totally non-PC simply stated the way the Bible says - you've probably found such a place.

When you find that place my hope is that you'll serve them the best you can.

God Bless,

 

[SpeckledRoo]

Tailfeathers I can agree with some of your thinking, but some I must disagree with. I Cor 13:10 has nothing to do with Christ. Below is a part of a study I teach on the spiritual gifts.

I COR 13:10

BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME THEN THAT WHICH IS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY

NOTICE: THE CONTEXT THAT WHICH IS IN PART = KNOWLEDGE

THAT WHICH IS PERFECT = KNOWLEDGE SO,

WHEN THE PERFECT KNOWLEDGE IS COME THE INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE IS DONE AWAY WITH

SOME TEACH THAT THE PERFECT IS JESUS CHRIST, BUT THAT IS NOT TRUE. THE CONTEXT MENTIONS NOTHING ABOUT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. THE CONTEXT IS KNOWLEDGE

HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT A PERSON, BUT A THING WHICH IS COMING

IF THIS IS ABOUT CHRIST COMING BACK, THEN THE GIFTS MUST COME TO AN END WHEN HE COMES BACK, (I COR 13:8)

BUT WE SEE THAT IN ACTS 2:16 THAT PETER QUOTES JOEL ABOUT THE SPIRIT POURING OUT IN THE LAST DAYS WHEN CHRIST COMES BACK, WHEN GIFTS ARE INCREASED NOT STOPPED. THE GIFTS ARE IN MAIN OPERATION AS A SIGN OF THAT TIME.

THE WORD PERFECT, IN THIS CONTEXT, MEANS MATURE, COMPLETE, FULL

No where does the Apostle to the gentiles, Paul, tell us to meditate, but he does tell us to study.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

In Christ,


Please excuse Caps, I copied from another document I had already written.​

 

[Tailfeathers]

"Knowledge" is not the context. Going back to Chapter 11 we see Paul is concerned about the divisions in the church. The actual context is unity in The Body and building up of The Body. The only time knowledge is really referred to is when Paul speaks of the gift of a "Word of Knowledge" and then later when he says "if there is knowledge" in verse 8. Many, if not most, of the other spiritual gifts have nothing to do with knowledge.

The actually context of Chapter 13 is mostly about "love". It's often referred to as the Love Chapter. And Chapter 13 follows on from Chapter 12's discussion on spiritual gifts. Paul is pretty clear in Chapter 12 that there is a diversity of gifts given to each Believer for the purposes of building up The Body. So in the broader context, The Love Chapter simply shows that the best way to build up The Body is to love one another. Paul does not dismiss the other gifts but rather emphasizes that any and all of those gifts used without love is worthless.

Granted, while the Chapter and even Book do not specifically deal with eschatological issues and the Second Coming as a whole that does not detract from the fact that verse 10 is not only speaking of the Second Coming but more to the eternal state of perfection we will have once we receive our glorified bodies after Christ comes to take us home. This is evidenced by the following verses in the chapter. Particularly verse 12.

One commentator puts it this way:

"He (Paul) hints that these gifts are adapted only to a state of imperfection: We know in part, and we prophesy in part, v. 9. Our best knowledge and our greatest abilities are at present like our condition, narrow and temporary. Even the knowledge they had by inspiration was but in part. How little a portion of God, and the unseen world, was heard even by apostles and inspired men! How much short do others come of them! But these gifts were fitted to the present imperfect state of the church, valuable in themselves, but not to be compared with charity, because they were to vanish with the imperfections of the church, nay, and long before, whereas charity was to last for ever.

He (Paul) takes occasion hence to show how much better it will be with the church hereafter than it can be here. A state of perfection is in view (v. 10): When that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness. God will be known then clearly, and in a manner by intuition, and as perfectly as the capacity of glorified minds will allow; not by such transient glimpses, and little portions, as here."

Verse 12 defines verse 10 when it says, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known"

I see Jesus thru the Bible today. One day I will see Him face to face. Now I know in part as God reveals His truths to me through the Bible and other teachers of the Bible. But NONE of those teachers have full revelation yet either. One day I will know fully. And that will be when Jesus comes or I am called home and then I shall know just as I have always been known. The Bible is here today and now but NONE of us as of yet fully know.

Even with the Bible today we do not have the full revelation of God. That is clearly seen by the discussion we've been having on this Forum, with all the various denominational differences and their teachings, and might I even say with our disagreement here. So clearly to me the Bible cannot be the "perfect" which is to come and do away with all the other.

So yes, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

God Bless,

 

[BarredBuff]

I just wanted to say that I am getting baptised tommorow!!

,

.

 

[babymakes6]

Congratulations, and God bless you as you live your life for HIM!

 

[Intheswamp]

Quote:
God bless you, BarredBuff. I'll announce it at church in the morning!

Keep your eyes on Jesus.

Ed

 

[BarredBuff]

Thanks my BYC Buddies!!!

 

[parmesan]

I thought this forum was about chickens...