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If or when I get Kraienkoppe, I plan to cross them with Malay as a project. This however is not to make them more game, I can't recall if I ever said I wished to make them more game and if I did I retract that statement. I will however tell you why I do want to cross in the Malay blood.
I have decided to breed the Malay blood in simply because the birds here do not represent what the birds should be. I would like the breed birds accordingly with what they should be rather than what they are now.
Here the birds are so crossed up with other blood they throw single, pea, and walnut combs when it should be only walnut. They have white and yellow legs while they should have only yellow. They have too high set of a tail commonly, they have too small of a head, they're too small in size, they're too flighty, they look almost identical to an American gamecock when they have a pea comb; The hens throw wheaten coloration predominantly while they should be the wild-type BBred coloration, and who knows how many more faults I just haven't seen in them.
That shouldn't be. The Malay blood added will gentle the birds down to have a much calmer disposition, they should still be able to coexist well together and instead of them going nutts when only trying to take a photo of them as George McLaughlin said you should be able to walk out and pick them up without any fuss. They should follow you around like puppies as the Shamo's I have tend to do.
The Malay blood will increase their size, it will help in establishing the yellow legs, it will help suppress the single comb genes and hopefully increase the walnut combs. It will bring the tail set down to the level it should be, which is "slightly pronounced" as the Dutch standard calls for. It will increase the width of their head as the Dutch standard calls for a wide head while many appear to have a small head similar to Old English Game. The Malay blood will cause them to have small to non-existant wattles and earlobes as the Dutch standard calls for, while here they look like a Old English Game commonly.
And there are most likely more things, I just am not thinking of right now. I put that information on the Ultimatefowl wiki regarding the Kraienkoeppe breed. I researched them by the breed club history and other reputable websites translating it from Dutch to English as I have done other breeds. I even got a Kraienkoppe breeder from the Netherlands named Wanda Swart (hope I spelled her last name correctly) to look over my work and she even added to it.
I've discussed with George Mclaughlin, and hope to eventually discuss with Craig Russell. I've talked to Sandhill hatchery; and the other few people in the US that carry or carried the Kraienkoppe blood. I did so to learn what I would be working with, at which time I make plans. George McLaughlin has heard my plans, at which point he said he thinks I could do a lot of good to the breed.
You can disagree with my plans, you like your Kraienkoppe as is; that is fine. Breed them how you like them, but I want to breed them accordingly to what the Kraienkoppe breed really is.
I do not appreciate you acting like gamefowl are cruel birds while Kraienkoppe's are "God sends". I like both breeds, are gamefowl sometimes manfighters (people aggressive)? Yes, they are sometimes. I don't breed from them, and many others do not breed from them. It is characteristic people attach to the gamefowl, but the gamefowl are no more aggressive towards people than any other breed, if anything they are less aggressive.
Kraienkoppe are not so gentle either, ask George McLaughlin about the bird he told me about that I believe it was his daughters cuddled while the cockerel grew up. I believe he went to the soup pot after he began attacking people. Again, I say that I base my opinions on lots of research; I am not ignorant. You are welcome to do as you wish with your birds, and I will do as I wish with mine.
The Kraienkoppe have game blood in them, that is just a fact. They even have Sumatra way, way, way back. It is in the Belgium game blood as well as Shamo, and other game breeds. I do not view the Kraienkoppe as a game breed anymore, they are not a game breed anymore than a Rhode Island Red is. But adding Malay which I also really do not see as a game, as many no longer contain the game characteristics (that is, where they are aggressive towards other birds) is not going to do the Kraienkoppe any harm in my opinion.
And if you really feel that strongly, perhaps you'll be glad to know as well that I plan to work with another strain that will be strictly Kraienkoppe blood without the Malay infusion. However, the end results will still hopefully be the same though it will take longer. It is an old post, but I don't like my name to be passed around without what I consider correct information, as people do search these things otherwise I wouldn't have found this thread.
I would also like to clarify I do not believe you could recreate the Kraienkoppe breed, nor would I add American game or Old English. Those two breeds will do the exact opposite of what I want to accomplish in the Kraienkoppe breed, which is taking them back to their more "oriental" look and characteristics if I may say.
God bless,
Daniel.
ETA: I would also like to clarify, the Malay infusion will not be a 1/2 and 1/2 cross either; it will be graded to the degree I feel it needs to be for the selection of type and temperament. I haven't hidden anything really, people will know as well if they buy from me or not if the Malay has been added. I see no reason to be dishonest in selling birds.
And as for whether it is Pheasant-Malay or Malay is no matter to me; It seems to be pretty settled upon people that the Pheasant-Malay is just a Malay cross, hence the name "Pheasant-Malay", people actually believed it was a cross between a pheasant and Malay because the coloration looked similar to a pheasant (I believe, accordingly with the books I've referenced) but it bore striking similarities to the Malay blood. Either way when one looks at true Kraienkoppe from the "homeland" one cannot help but see the similarities in them to that of some Malay fowl we have within the US, which is why I use Malay, it is closer to type than the Shamo.
Old English, whether they are added again or not ARE in the Kraienkoppe's blood. Belgium Game contains Old English, Combattant Du Nord, and "Asian gamefowl lines" (also where the Sumatra blood comes in) still showing that they carry the Old English blood; was it added again which is why people mention the Old English blood? I don't know, but the people who know the birds given that they were created in their country say so, so that is who I believe. Again the Malay blood can be seen fairly well in the Brueges gamefowl, and especially that of its crosses Tirlemont and Liege Games which all three equal "Belgiam Games". Whether all three contributed to the Kraienkoppe or not, I can't answer.
If or when I get Kraienkoppe, I plan to cross them with Malay as a project. This however is not to make them more game, I can't recall if I ever said I wished to make them more game and if I did I retract that statement. I will however tell you why I do want to cross in the Malay blood.
I have decided to breed the Malay blood in simply because the birds here do not represent what the birds should be. I would like the breed birds accordingly with what they should be rather than what they are now.
Here the birds are so crossed up with other blood they throw single, pea, and walnut combs when it should be only walnut. They have white and yellow legs while they should have only yellow. They have too high set of a tail commonly, they have too small of a head, they're too small in size, they're too flighty, they look almost identical to an American gamecock when they have a pea comb; The hens throw wheaten coloration predominantly while they should be the wild-type BBred coloration, and who knows how many more faults I just haven't seen in them.
That shouldn't be. The Malay blood added will gentle the birds down to have a much calmer disposition, they should still be able to coexist well together and instead of them going nutts when only trying to take a photo of them as George McLaughlin said you should be able to walk out and pick them up without any fuss. They should follow you around like puppies as the Shamo's I have tend to do.
The Malay blood will increase their size, it will help in establishing the yellow legs, it will help suppress the single comb genes and hopefully increase the walnut combs. It will bring the tail set down to the level it should be, which is "slightly pronounced" as the Dutch standard calls for. It will increase the width of their head as the Dutch standard calls for a wide head while many appear to have a small head similar to Old English Game. The Malay blood will cause them to have small to non-existant wattles and earlobes as the Dutch standard calls for, while here they look like a Old English Game commonly.
And there are most likely more things, I just am not thinking of right now. I put that information on the Ultimatefowl wiki regarding the Kraienkoeppe breed. I researched them by the breed club history and other reputable websites translating it from Dutch to English as I have done other breeds. I even got a Kraienkoppe breeder from the Netherlands named Wanda Swart (hope I spelled her last name correctly) to look over my work and she even added to it.
I've discussed with George Mclaughlin, and hope to eventually discuss with Craig Russell. I've talked to Sandhill hatchery; and the other few people in the US that carry or carried the Kraienkoppe blood. I did so to learn what I would be working with, at which time I make plans. George McLaughlin has heard my plans, at which point he said he thinks I could do a lot of good to the breed.
You can disagree with my plans, you like your Kraienkoppe as is; that is fine. Breed them how you like them, but I want to breed them accordingly to what the Kraienkoppe breed really is.
I do not appreciate you acting like gamefowl are cruel birds while Kraienkoppe's are "God sends". I like both breeds, are gamefowl sometimes manfighters (people aggressive)? Yes, they are sometimes. I don't breed from them, and many others do not breed from them. It is characteristic people attach to the gamefowl, but the gamefowl are no more aggressive towards people than any other breed, if anything they are less aggressive.
Kraienkoppe are not so gentle either, ask George McLaughlin about the bird he told me about that I believe it was his daughters cuddled while the cockerel grew up. I believe he went to the soup pot after he began attacking people. Again, I say that I base my opinions on lots of research; I am not ignorant. You are welcome to do as you wish with your birds, and I will do as I wish with mine.
The Kraienkoppe have game blood in them, that is just a fact. They even have Sumatra way, way, way back. It is in the Belgium game blood as well as Shamo, and other game breeds. I do not view the Kraienkoppe as a game breed anymore, they are not a game breed anymore than a Rhode Island Red is. But adding Malay which I also really do not see as a game, as many no longer contain the game characteristics (that is, where they are aggressive towards other birds) is not going to do the Kraienkoppe any harm in my opinion.
And if you really feel that strongly, perhaps you'll be glad to know as well that I plan to work with another strain that will be strictly Kraienkoppe blood without the Malay infusion. However, the end results will still hopefully be the same though it will take longer. It is an old post, but I don't like my name to be passed around without what I consider correct information, as people do search these things otherwise I wouldn't have found this thread.
I would also like to clarify I do not believe you could recreate the Kraienkoppe breed, nor would I add American game or Old English. Those two breeds will do the exact opposite of what I want to accomplish in the Kraienkoppe breed, which is taking them back to their more "oriental" look and characteristics if I may say.
God bless,
Daniel.
ETA: I would also like to clarify, the Malay infusion will not be a 1/2 and 1/2 cross either; it will be graded to the degree I feel it needs to be for the selection of type and temperament. I haven't hidden anything really, people will know as well if they buy from me or not if the Malay has been added. I see no reason to be dishonest in selling birds.
And as for whether it is Pheasant-Malay or Malay is no matter to me; It seems to be pretty settled upon people that the Pheasant-Malay is just a Malay cross, hence the name "Pheasant-Malay", people actually believed it was a cross between a pheasant and Malay because the coloration looked similar to a pheasant (I believe, accordingly with the books I've referenced) but it bore striking similarities to the Malay blood. Either way when one looks at true Kraienkoppe from the "homeland" one cannot help but see the similarities in them to that of some Malay fowl we have within the US, which is why I use Malay, it is closer to type than the Shamo.
Old English, whether they are added again or not ARE in the Kraienkoppe's blood. Belgium Game contains Old English, Combattant Du Nord, and "Asian gamefowl lines" (also where the Sumatra blood comes in) still showing that they carry the Old English blood; was it added again which is why people mention the Old English blood? I don't know, but the people who know the birds given that they were created in their country say so, so that is who I believe. Again the Malay blood can be seen fairly well in the Brueges gamefowl, and especially that of its crosses Tirlemont and Liege Games which all three equal "Belgiam Games". Whether all three contributed to the Kraienkoppe or not, I can't answer.
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