Ayam Cemani Test Breeding

[Blue Eager]

According to the Ayam Cemani Breeders Association “Test breeding” is the only sure way to tell if your breeders stock have two copies of “Fm”? If I understand this method correctly this is achieved by breeding all fibro males with none fibro females, and all fibro females with none fibro males. In other words breeding fibro males and fibro females with for example; Blue Ameraucanas. If the offspring are all black then your birds do have both copies of Fm. Below is a chart that illustrates the different results of this test.

I have been breeding these birds going on 5 years now and the offspring have been the best I have had thus far with very few culls. I now have approximately 20 grow-outs with excellent qualities I am considering using for this test which by no means appears easily accomplished. The males would be relatively simple although it is the females that would be difficult to keep track of. My guess is the only way would be separating each none fibro male with each fibro female until at least 10 eggs are gathered for incubation, unless I can develop some sort of method to tag or identify characteristics of each individual females eggs.

So my question is; has anyone here tried this Test Breeding method, how did you accomplish it, and what did you think of this method?

 

[nicalandia]

Both the Chinese Silkie and Ayam Cemani have been bred for thousands of years for their black skin/meat/face, recent genetic studies have confirm that they share the same mutation and give it a date of around 9000 years ago(well before the chicken domestication event)


Reference: The origin and evolution of fibromelanosis in domesticated chickens: Genomic comparison of Indonesian Cemani and Chinese Silkie breeds.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173147


Fibromelanotic is an autosomal incomplete dominant mutation of the fm allele(Fm is the mutation and fm+ is the recessive wildtype counterpart), but here is the catch, for Fibromelanotic to be expressed at all it needs the help of the recessive sex linked dermal enhancer id+, This means that if you don't know this and you are performing a test cross of your Cemani stock with the wrong type of chicken your results will be inaccurate and may lead to the culling of a perfectly fine line.

Here is an example:

Ayam Cemani hen genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/- : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: Black Skin

Rhode Island Red rooster genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/Id : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin


The result of such cross will yield F1s with White Skin, red combs and white undersole with dark shanks(Extended black allows for epidermal melanin to express)

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
Id/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White skin

So going by this cross you would be baffled to see that 100% of the chicks that hatched have white clear skin?

Now do the reciprocal cross(Cemani Roo over RIR hen) and you will get Sex links(pullets will hatch with black skin and cockerels will hatch with white clear skin)


Ayam Cemani Rooster genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/id+ : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: White Skin

Rhode Island Red hen genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/- : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
id+/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White Skin for males and Black Skin for females.

So even if you had pure Ayam Cemani(homozygous for the Fibromelanotic mutation) if you test it with the wrong type of hens or roosters your result will be inaccurate and I just believe that is unacceptable for someone not to mention that when writing about that on that page.

So what are acceptable breeds? Breeds with slate or willow shanks, don't use extended black birds(solid black birds) as they may have slate colored shanks but that is due to epidermal melanin and they may very well be sex linked Id.

 

[Blue Eager]

I have decided to abandon this test trial for the following reasons;

1- Anyone who has spent countless hours familiarizing he or herself with this breed can visually arrive at a consensus as to which birds are either a FM1, FM2, or neither. Case in point; my first trial. My theory was that he was an FM1 and the trial proved that.
2- The amount of time it would take to test in excess of 2 males and 10 females is simply ridiculous.
3- The photos below is of a male that was born in February of this year and will take over as my breeder roo for the 2021 season. I don't believe a test trial is necessary to convince me he is an FM2. Using the Ayam Cemani's own "Code of Perfection" guidelines; this roo does not exhibit even the slightest sign of leakage.

 

[nicalandia]

Here is the link to the above test; https://ayamcemani.us/how-to-breed-your-ayam-cemani/

This Test is riddle with Flaws, not to mention that it lacks any basic genetic knowledge or even attempts to educate it's users on the fundamentals of the black skin on Fibromelanotic birds


Edit... stay put for a detailed genetic explanation on the matter...

 

[Blue Eager]

Both the Chinese Silkie and Ayam Cemani have been bred for thousands of years for their black skin/meat/face, recent genetic studies have confirm that they share the same mutation and give it a date of around 9000 years ago(well before the chicken domestication event)


Reference: The origin and evolution of fibromelanosis in domesticated chickens: Genomic comparison of Indonesian Cemani and Chinese Silkie breeds.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173147


Fibromelanotic is an autosomal incomplete dominant mutation of the fm allele(Fm is the mutation and fm+ is the recessive wildtype counterpart), but here is the catch, for Fibromelanotic to be expressed at all it needs the help of the recessive sex linked dermal enhancer id+, This means that if you don't know this and you are performing a test cross of your Cemani stock with the wrong type of chicken your results will be inaccurate and may lead to the culling of a perfectly fine line.

Here is an example:

Ayam Cemani hen genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/- : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: Black Skin

Rhode Island Red rooster genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/Id : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin


The result of such cross will yield F1s with White Skin, red combs and white undersole with dark shanks(Extended black allows for epidermal melanin to express)

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
Id/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White skin

So going by this cross you would be baffled to see that 100% of the chicks that hatched have white clear skin?

Now do the reciprocal cross(Cemani Roo over RIR hen) and you will get Sex links(pullets will hatch with black skin and cockerels will hatch with white clear skin)


Ayam Cemani Rooster genetic make up:

E/E: Extended Black, black chick down
Fm/FM: Fibromelanotic
id+/id+ : Recessive Sex linked Dermal enhancer
W+/W+: White Skin

Rhode Island Red hen genetic make up:

eWh/eWh: Wheaten
fm+/fm+: non-fibromelanotic wildtype
Id/- : Sex linked Dominant Dermal Inhibito(will inhibit any and all dermal melanin expression)
w/w: Recessive yellow skin

E/eWh: Black Chick down
Fm/fm+: Heterozygous Fibromelanotic
id+/- for females and Id/id+ males
W+/w: White Skin for males and Black Skin for females.

So even if you had pure Ayam Cemani(homozygous for the Fibromelanotic mutation) if you test it with the wrong type of hens or roosters your result will be inaccurate and I just believe that is unacceptable for someone not to mention that when writing about that on that page.

So what are acceptable breeds? Breeds with slate or willow shanks, don't use extended black birds(solid black birds) as they may have slate colored shanks but that is due to epidermal melanin and they may very well be sex linked Id.

My suspicions are correct. When I pressured the AC site to disclose scientific evidence to support they're claim they simply deleted my posts on two different occasions. You will also notice one or two other questions in search of basically the same information with zero response.

You also touched on my worst fear which was culling perfectly good Cemanis based on bogus claims.

So, which breeds would you consider likely candidates to attempt a suitable cross breed test?

BTW; thank you so much for clarifying this seemingly bullet proof test.

 

[nicalandia]

My suspicions are correct. When I pressured the AC site to disclose scientific evidence to support they're claim they simply deleted my posts on two different occasions. You will also notice one or two other questions in search of basically the same information with zero response.

You also touched on my worst fear which was culling perfectly good Cemanis based on bogus claims.

So, which breeds would you consider likely candidates to attempt a suitable cross breed test?

BTW; thank you so much for clarifying this seemingly bullet proof test.

Ameraucanas would be my go to breed choice for out crossing for testing purpose, first they have the sex linked dermal enhancer gene(id+), White skin gene(W+/W+) and lay blue eggs so they will be cool looking like Rapanui or old chilean stock of Mapuche

 

[nicalandia]

NatJ I currently have my Cemani Roo with my Blue Ameraucana hens; blue's & splash & no black's. It appears a little more complicated than I thought. So if I may I would like to pose the same question to you; what non-fibro breed of hen & roo would be sufficient to conduct this cross breed test to insure I get an accurate account of which Cemanis carry the Fm 2 gene?

Blue/Black Ameraucana is enough to produce the results you are looking for, the good thing about Ameraucanas is that they carry the pea comb and beards that means that the Test Cross can be sold as Easter Eggers if need be without people actually thinking they are purchasing Cemani type birds

 

[NatJ]

Can anyone offer suggestions as to how to keep track of each one without having to stand guard the entire time? For example; does each egg have a footprint, similar to a fingerprint?

Sometimes you can tell which egg came from a certain hen because she lays longer ones, or rounder ones, or speckled ones, or ones of a different color. But if they're all the same breed, they're likely to be pretty similar.

I assume you've got leg bands or some way to identify each hen?

I can't think of any really good methods, but here are the less-than-perfect things I thought of. Maybe one of them will suggest a better idea for you.

Individual cages are one option--either all 20 at once, or just a few at a time, and then a different few the next week (takes less cages, but more time from beginning to end.)

If you put them in cages, you have the option of letting each hen out after she lays her daily egg, then putting her back before the next morning (maybe after dark, because it's easier to grab them off the roost.) That way they don't have to spend all their time in cages.

If you have other chickens, you could put one Ayam Cemani hen in a pen with Easter Eggers, one in a pen with Marans, and so forth (any pens of chickens that lay different-looking eggs, and that don't have a rooster in the pen.) Of course, being put in a pen with others is stressful for the hens, so that may not work too well.

I've read of trap nests--hen goes in, lays egg, cannot get back out. Then you go out every hour or so to collect the eggs and release the hens (being sure to note which egg came from which hen). That might be a little easier than standing there watching all day, but probably not much easier.

 

[Blue Eager]

Here are the latest photos of the same Ayam Cemani Roo above & a few of the girls I selected out of 150+ from last years hatch. I am certainly looking forward to this years offspring.

 

[Blue Eager]

Here is the link to the above test; https://ayamcemani.us/how-to-breed-your-ayam-cemani/