Ayam Cemani Test Breeding

[Blue Eager]

Excellent nicalandia. My first Cemani Roo has been getting acquainted with my BA hens for 1 week now. I will begin collecting eggs on Monday.

Thank you. You've been a huge help!

 

[NatJ]

how long does it take until the eggs of a hen run their course from one roo so that I am certain all of her eggs are fertilized from the next roo she is breed to?

It's common to allow three weeks after removing one rooster, before starting to collect eggs from the next rooster.

If you just remove the rooster, you will typically get fertile eggs for the next week. The second and third week you might get a few fertile eggs--not enough for a good hatch rate, but enough to mess up a breeding program with "oops" chicks. (Having the new rooster present may mean that his sperm outcompete the older sperm to fertilize the eggs, but it's not a guaranteed thing.)

But sometimes you can set it up so you know which rooster fathered which chick, just by examining the chicks.

A few specific examples:

With your Easter Eggers and Ayam Cemani: if the hens are brown and black, they will produce black chicks when bred to the Ayam Cemani. If the Easter Egger rooster is also brown and black (not all black), or if he is brown and white, those same hens will produce not-black chicks when bred to him. So you could just sort the chicks for "black" and "not-black." (Might be able to sort at hatch, might have to wait some weeks for them to get feathers--depends on the genetic details of the color patterns involved.) Most white-and-black patterns would work equally well, but there are a few that won't.

For testing Ayam Cemani hens: of course pure Ayam Cemani will be black. If you cross with a splash rooster (two copies of the blue gene), then all chicks from that rooster will be blue instead of black. Or cross with a white-laced-red rooster, and you'll get white chicks (because of the Dominant White gene turning the black to white.) A Barred Rock or Dominique rooster should pass barring to all his chicks, which would distinguish them from pure black Ayam Cemani chicks. (Does not work with a Black Sexlink rooster, because he has only one copy of the barring gene, so only half his chicks will be barred.)

A bird with a crest on the head, or feathered legs, will typically pass those to its chicks, so those can also be used as markers of which rooster was the father.

 

[Blue Eager]

NatJ I currently have my Cemani Roo with my Blue Ameraucana hens; blue's & splash & no black's. It appears a little more complicated than I thought. So if I may I would like to pose the same question to you; what non-fibro breed of hen & roo would be sufficient to conduct this cross breed test to insure I get an accurate account of which Cemanis carry the Fm 2 gene?

 

[NatJ]

NatJ I currently have my Cemani Roo with my Blue Ameraucana hens; blue's & splash & no black's. It appears a little more complicated than I thought. So if I may I would like to pose the same question to you; what non-fibro breed of hen & roo would be sufficient to conduct this cross breed test to insure I get an accurate account of which Cemanis carry the Fm 2 gene?

I don't personally know that much about the Fibro genes, so I'm going by what nicalandia said--you want slate or willow shanks, and feather color not extended black (so probably not blue, splash, lavender, barred, or mottled, because those are often based on extended black.)

I'm trying to think of breeds with dark legs...

Ameraucanas: maybe wheaten, or even blue/splash wheaten.

Hamburgs: spangled or penciled color patterns, not solid black/blue/splash.

Polish: laced varieties.

Buttercup

"Indian Red Jungle Fowl"--some hatcheries sell them. They're probably not "real" jungle fowl, but they look more-or-less like the wild ones.

You don't need really "good" birds for test mating. Hatchery-quality should be just fine, as long as the leg color is right. Because you need the recessive gene (id+), at least you can tell by looking whether it's got the correct genes there!

 

[nicalandia]

NatJ I currently have my Cemani Roo with my Blue Ameraucana hens; blue's & splash & no black's. It appears a little more complicated than I thought. So if I may I would like to pose the same question to you; what non-fibro breed of hen & roo would be sufficient to conduct this cross breed test to insure I get an accurate account of which Cemanis carry the Fm 2 gene?

Blue/Black Ameraucana is enough to produce the results you are looking for, the good thing about Ameraucanas is that they carry the pea comb and beards that means that the Test Cross can be sold as Easter Eggers if need be without people actually thinking they are purchasing Cemani type birds

 

[Blue Eager]

Thanks again nicalandia. That would simplify the test on my end as mentioned before I already have the Blue Ameraucanas.

So, & pardon me if I am repeating myself; are you saying if I breed my Cemani Roo to a blue/black Ameraucana hen & the chicks are all black then my roo is as the Cemani site indicated, has the “Fm-2” gene? I was somewhat confused with respect to the black Ameraucana although hatchlings do have white feathers on the underside of their necks & some on the wing tips until their permanent black feathers replace those. In addition, if I have interpreted what NatJ mentioned in the post above a "blue" will not work? So is this not correct or have I interpreted the statement wrong?

In addition; if I breed my Cemani hens to a blue, Blue Ameraucana roo & they too have the Fm-2 gene will their offspring be all black?

 

[NatJ]

So what are acceptable breeds? Breeds with slate or willow shanks, don't use extended black birds(solid black birds) as they may have slate colored shanks but that is due to epidermal melanin and they may very well be sex linked Id.

I thought this would rule out the black/blue/splash Ameraucanas.

But if nicalandia says they will work, then I strongly suggest using them. What you have is always a great place to start, and nicalandia appears to know much more than I do about this Sorry if I caused any confusion along the way.

 

[Blue Eager]

NatJ. Please, no need to apologize. Both you & nicalandia have contributed to this discussion with unquestionable knowledge & for this I am grateful to you both!

 

[nicalandia]

I thought this would rule out the black/blue/splash Ameraucanas.

But if nicalandia says they will work, then I strongly suggest using them. What you have is always a great place to start, and nicalandia appears to know much more than I do about this Sorry if I caused any confusion along the way.

thats because Ameraucanas do have the id+ sex linked dermal booster weather they are Black or not

 

[Blue Eager]

The Splash rooster I previously had was separated from the Blue Ameraucana hens 6 weeks ago. My first AC roo has been with the hens for a week now. Yesterday and today I collected 7 eggs. All went into the incubator an hour ago so with any luck more eggs than not will be fertile. I will continue collecting eggs until I have a total of 14. With any luck hatches should begin at the end of this month.

As a side note; two of the 5 hens are Blue Ameraucana, Cream Legbar cross. Two blue egg layers. I am not sure if the same results can be expected from them although it might be interesting to find out.

nicalandia, I spent some time reviewing the link you referenced; https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173147
Way above this breeders pay grade. However, I was able to decipher several key points. Absolutely impressive. I had no idea any publications regarding these birds & others like them, to the extent of this study, could be found online. Much appreciated.