BBR Cubalaya genetics question

[DaveK]

That would be much too dark for the males. You do NOT want dark males, only females.



This bird still has too dark of a hackle in my opinion. It should be even lighter than on this guy.

Not just a light hackle but a shaded hackle. A BRIGHT hackle. I think it was Saladin that made the comparison to fire and with the shading from top to bottom and that brightness it's a grand comparison.

 

[saladin]

But doesn't the SOP call for A wheaten bird based on the description. We have the same issue in the araucana. Unfortunately for many years people didn't read the description and just assumed BBR ment wild type as in the old english games. But its really in the description of the female that the SOP is clear.

I recently showed a dark wheaten female and she was written up for incorrect color because she was too dark and didn't fit the description. The judge was very clear that she needed to be more like the lighter bird per the SOP. So how did Mr. Finch do at the shows if he showed a partridge female which sounds to me like a wild type, because the word partridge is usually used to indicate a bird built on eb or brown and almost always carries pg or pattern gene which gives each feather a laced pattern. Please bear in mind as I am making these statements, I am struggling to understand the BBR pattern that is supposed to be in the araucana per the SOP Brian Reader believes it is the genotype I postulated in the beginning and what I have been basing my breeding program on. I probably have as many pictures of wheaten cubalayas on my computer as I do wheaten araucana so that I am constantly referring back and for as I evaluate my birds.

This is the bird the judge said was dark Her lighter daughter And a still lighter bird of mine


These are all three based on wheaten and to me follow the SOP to some extent depending on shade interpretation. All my birds carry Mahogany. I was told that the first hen may also carry Dark Brown which makes her even darker. Not sure about that.

Lanae

I need better pictures of those first two birds to comment.

 

[saladin]

This is my favorite Cubalaya pullet.

 

[saladin]

Here's a China Game that has the same color throughout the hackle. This is what some lines of Cubalaya look like in the hackle. IT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT IN A CUBALAYA!


Here's a Cubalaya cock for comparison and his head should be darker, but the hackle color over the shoulders is correct.

 

[troyer]

Is this the color you are looking for in the cockerel. Saladin I really like your darker colored pullet, I have one almost identical to it, I almost thought you reposted a picture of my pullet, they look so similar. My avatar is a blue breasted wheaten with a good amount of stippling.

 

[cashdl]

Is this the color you are looking for in the cockerel. Saladin I really like your darker colored pullet, I have one almost identical to it, I almost thought you reposted a picture of my pullet, they look so similar. My avatar is a blue breasted wheaten with a good amount of stippling.

He is stunning. Is he yours? What is he based on? Wheaten or wild type.

Lanae

 

[troyer]

He is mine. He is based on wheaten.

 

[4hmom]

the reason the females are darker than regular wheaton is because correct colored females are ressesive wheaton as in asian game. now some lines do have the mohogany gene, but it's the good breeding that makes the backs dark not the mahogany. mohagany effects the hackles on the females.

 

[cubakid]

the reason the females are darker than regular wheaton is because correct colored females are ressesive wheaton as in asian game. now some lines do have the mohogany gene, but it's the good breeding that makes the backs dark not the mahogany. mohagany effects the hackles on the females.

Are you referring to the males back or the females back. It shouldn't be just the back. And you can't breed for something if the genetics aren't there for it

 

[cubakid]

Well Dave you brought up the obvious problem which is the male hackle color. That always has concerned me as well. In a standard description female, I think the above genotype describes them well. I would tend to think that if you melanize the males, and add mahogany, you would get the solid dark hackle color. That makes sense but I am not convinced its true. So far to me the Reeder description makes the most sense, so for now let's say it's my working theory. Dave, maybe you could also shed some light on the Castagnetti birds. I know the birds Mr Zook keeps are heavily influenced by Castagnetti blood at this point. This year he had some partridge type pullets, very dark even color, not at all wheaten, appear out of his wheaten birds. I assume this is the Castagnetti influence resurfacing. The males from this line currently have the correct bright bright hackle. What did the original Castagnetti males look like in terms of hackle color? The bright color there would seem to indicate no mahogany, unless you need something else to darken the hackle in addition to Mh? The one thing that really does indicate the presence of Mh is the dark red shoulders in the males of the silver and golden wheatens. I think a silver male with red shoulders is carrying autosomal red and or mahogany or both. All my silver or golden birds have had very dark shoulders, but , I know both Saladin and Zook have produced silvers with light shoulders, so it can be done. I guess someone more knowledgeable than myself needs to answer whether mahogany always darkens the hackle. The possibility does exist that the standard description describes two separate genotypes, a different one for each sex. Which is the case in other breeds, hence double mating schemes, cockerel lines, all that good stuff. If the sexes are in fact two separate genotypes, it could explain a lot. If the male / female lines got muddled up over the years it would explains some of the variations in color we see.

Saladin is correct in that there is a lot of variation within the breed, some birds are part true wild type duckwing partridge whatever you care to call it. I saw some non wheaten pullets just a few days ago actually. As far as what is described in the standard, they should be wheaten, plus mahogany, plus autosomal red/ pheomelanin, plus probably some sort of extra melanizers. That would give a bird that matched the standard. However, many of the birds are heterozygous for a lot of these traits, so without test mating, it can be hard to say what you have exactly and what exactly you will get when crossing. My info comes from my own crossing experiments plus primarily the Reeder book on color genetics.
No, they are not plain old regular wheaten!!

The variations among birds could be the reason why the silver shouldered birds are able to be produced, even if the main idea is that Mh is behind the deep rich cinnamon color. Maybe the lack of Mh is what produces the true silvers while Mh causes salmon like coloring for males. But I'd like to know the gene that is causing the dark wheaten females while the males are a vibrant flashy wheaten. Maybe if it isn't figured out by then I can work on it in college.