Silver Genetics Questions - Ameraucanas

[therustyseeder]

Disclaimer, I find genetics and breeding for plumage and egg colour altogether complicated yet fascinating but have no plans for showing.

I hatched out 11 chicks from my blue ameraucana hen. I am fairly confident in her genetics as she was purchased from a breeder that shows her birds. She was kept in a black & blue flock, making her Bl/bl+.

I have bred my Ameraucana roo over her. Though perhaps I have discovered he is actually a mudblood and I’ve been lied to as per how most ameraucana exchanges go. This was a casual ameraucana breeder, but only does that breed so we said why not. My roo presented silver, but we suspected recessive gold due to his brassiness. Maybe also his black seems blue now that he is older. e+? S? s+?

10 chicks were a mix of blue and black, no surprises there, however our very last chick stunningly came out yellow. Splash? Wheaten? What can this tell me about his genes? Could he be masking a gold/red/wheaten vibe? Or does this indicate anything about my hen that may be awry?

I also have recently read that breeding with a silver roo is typically discouraged among the Ameraucana groups due to leakage? I, of course, read this after my eggs were already in the incubator. All that being said, he is an excellent rooster (our third, finally got an awesome one) that his personality is too precious to discard. In the future, would it be best (casually breeding wise) only to hatch out hens from a certain colour? Silvers? Wheaten? Is there no point now knowing he is just throwing “Easter Eggers”?

Apologize for the long post, but wanted to give as many details as possible in case I’m missing something obvious. Thanks so much for advice and discussions! Will add photos in next post!

 

[therustyseeder]

^ Roo. I suspected his recessive gold from his colouring not being quite so “silver” but is his belly potentially showing more blue?he doesn’t have the typical duckwing “tip” either.

^ momma blue

^ grey and black penguins

^ baby in question with black leakage? splash? wheaten? (ignore show-off Silkies)

 

[therustyseeder]

Update: I was able to get these photos from the breeder of the roo. His sisters (still pullets) were all this wheaten colouring, and the males looked like him. It’s like there’s a strange silvery-blue-splash wheaten melangé happening.

 

[NatJ]

I hatched out 11 chicks from my blue ameraucana hen. I am pretty confident in her genetics as she was purchased from a breeder that shows her birds. She was kept in a black & blue flock. I believe this makes her Bl/bl+. Right?

As regards the blue gene, correct. But it doesn't tell much about the other genes she has.

I have bred my Ameraucana silver roo over her. Though perhaps he is actually a mudblood and I’ve been lied to as per most ameraucana exchanges go. This was a casual breeder, so he is the one I’m questioning the most. I believe Silver can only present dominant over gold so, he is either Silver/Silver or Silver/Gold. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’ve seen this as e+, S, s+.

As regards silver/gold, you are probably correct that he shows silver and carries gold. Or he might be pure for silver but not have all the right genes to make a clean white color in the silver areas.

I'm not good at recognizing whether he's got e+ or some other gene(s) at the e-locus. I am confident that he does not have E (Extended Black), but I could believe almost any other option or combination.

Since you point out that he doesn't have the wingtip color you would expect on a duckwing, maybe Birchen (Crowwing)? That's E^R in the genetics calculator, (but doesn't do anything to help explain the puzzling chick.)

Our very last chick stunningly came out yellow/white with black leakage?? Or perhaps even a splash? Would this be a result of the recessive gold at play?or is my rooster actually something like a blue patterned gold duckwing ? It is the only category on the chicken genetics calculator that seems to make sense.

It will be easier to tell for sure when the chick grows up a bit more. There might be several of those points going on.

It could possibly be splash. But my current best guess: the hen is not E/E (Extended Black) like you were expecting.

If she is E/? (something else at the e-locus), she could produce a chick like the one you are seeing. If she were E/E (pure for Extended Black), then all chicks should be black or gray penguin-type chicks, which that one is obvoiusly not.

To me, the chick looks more like silver than gold, although I've certainly been mistaken on some chicks in the past. But gold vs. silver should not change how much black is on the chick, and the lack of black is thing that is most obvious. So that's why I'm betting on either splash (dilutes the black to a very light shade) or the hen having E/? (the other e-locus gene would be one that allows much less black and gives more area for gold or silver to show.)

Question at large. Does this confirm or further complicate the genes of my rooster? He is most definitely not Silver/Silver. Could he be masking a red/wheaten vibe? Or does this indicate anything about my hen that may be awry?

Yup, probably the hen.

I also have recently read that breeding with a silver roo is typically discouraged among the Ameraucana groups due to leakage?

If you want chickens that are solid black or blue, with no leakage, then yes you would want to avoid breeding with any birds that show silver or gold (any kind of pattern or leakage).

I, of course, read this after my eggs were already in the incubator. All that being said, he is an excellent rooster (our third, finally got an awesome one) that his personality is too precious to discard. In the future, would it be best (casually breeding wise) only to hatch out hens from a certain colour? Silvers? Wheaten? Is there no point now knowing he is just potentially throwing “Easter Eggers”?

It depends on how much you care about the colors of your chickens. If you want to breed recognized colors to show or to sell, you will want to figure out the genetics, and only breed him with hens of the "right" color. But if you just want pretty birds for a backyard flock, or you want to sell them as Easter Eggers, you can mix any colors you like.

 

[therustyseeder]

As regards the blue gene, correct. But it doesn't tell much about the other genes she has.


As regards silver/gold, you are probably correct that he shows silver and carries gold. Or he might be pure for silver but not have all the right genes to make a clean white color in the silver areas.

I'm not good at recognizing whether he's got e+ or some other gene(s) at the e-locus. I am confident that he does not have E (Extended Black), but I could believe almost any other option or combination.

Since you point out that he doesn't have the wingtip color you would expect on a duckwing, maybe Birchen (Crowwing)? That's E^R in the genetics calculator, (but doesn't do anything to help explain the puzzling chick.)


It will be easier to tell for sure when the chick grows up a bit more. There might be several of those points going on.

It could possibly be splash. But my current best guess: the hen is not E/E (Extended Black) like you were expecting.

If she is E/? (something else at the e-locus), she could produce a chick like the one you are seeing. If she were E/E (pure for Extended Black), then all chicks should be black or gray penguin-type chicks, which that one is obvoiusly not.

To me, the chick looks more like silver than gold, although I've certainly been mistaken on some chicks in the past. But gold vs. silver should not change how much black is on the chick, and the lack of black is thing that is most obvious. So that's why I'm betting on either splash (dilutes the black to a very light shade) or the hen having E/? (the other e-locus gene would be one that allows much less black and gives more area for gold or silver to show.)


Yup, probably the hen.


If you want chickens that are solid black or blue, with no leakage, then yes you would want to avoid breeding with any birds that show silver or gold (any kind of pattern or leakage).


It depends on how much you care about the colors of your chickens. If you want to breed recognized colors to show or to sell, you will want to figure out the genetics, and only breed him with hens of the "right" color. But if you just want pretty birds for a backyard flock, or you want to sell them as Easter Eggers, you can mix any colors you like.

Awesome response, thank you so much!

Definitely wasn’t expecting the hen to be the potential culprit. Perhaps worth a call to her original breeder to inquire.

As for the roo, if he is in fact Silver/gold, is he good for breeding to anybody? Even to other silvers for a couple generations?

I’m comfortable selling the chicks as Easter Eggers as I know his sisters are laying blue eggs now. Was just curious if there WAS a place for selling Ameraucanas. I certainly don’t want to set the breed backwards by selling poor stock under that name, but have enjoyed learning the genetics, however complicated.

Now if there is more wheaten vibes going on.. I’m lost again.

 

[NatJ]

Definitely wasn’t expecting the hen to be the potential culprit. Perhaps worth a call to her original breeder to inquire.

You could, or maybe wait until the chick grows some feathers (which will probably make things a bit more clear.)

As for the roo, if he is in fact Silver/gold, is he good for breeding to anybody? Even to other silvers for a couple generations?

A silver/gold split just has both of those genes, one on each of his two Z chromosomes.

Because females have chromosomes ZW, and silver or gold is on the Z chromosome, a female cannot be a split. That means his daughters will have silver, or have gold, but not both.

For sons, he could produce splits, or ones pure for silver, or ones pure for gold (depending on which gene their mother has, and which gene he happens to give each chick.)

Of course you can't select for the correct shade of silver or the correct shade of gold in a split, which is a good reason to avoid them if you are trying to breed just one single color of Amerauacana, but you can probably work around that if it is important to you.

I’m comfortable selling the chicks as Easter Eggers as I know his sisters are laying blue eggs now. Was just curious if there WAS a place for selling Ameraucanas. I certainly don’t want to set the breed backwards by selling poor stock under that name, but have enjoyed learning the genetics, however complicated.

I don't know the Ameraucana color varieties very well, so I don't know for sure about that. Yes, very good point about not wanting to mis-represent what kind & quality of birds you sell.

Now if there is more wheaten vibes going on.. I’m lost again.

Unfortunately, I don't know what to say about that either

You might want to ask specifically about the rooster in this thread:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/the-ask-anything-to-nicalandia-thread.1509343/
(Definitely including photos of him, and maybe his sister, and his chicks with the blue hen.)

I am pretty bad at recognizing many kinds of patterns in chickens, even after I understand the theoretical genetics of how they work.

 

[Amer]

Your rooster is an Easter Egger. I suspect you’ve been jipped. He isn’t any recognized Ameraucana color or even a blue golden duckwing. He isn’t even a cross between silver duckwing and blue wheaten.
He doesn’t have the silver secondaries.
He might be a cross between a silver based black or blue Ameraucana and wheaten or blue wheaten. I don’t really know.

 

[Amer]

So maybe
E/e^whS/s+

 

[NagemTX]

Disclaimer, I find genetics and breeding for plumage and egg colour altogether complicated yet fascinating but have no plans for showing.

I hatched out 11 chicks from my blue ameraucana hen. I am fairly confident in her genetics as she was purchased from a breeder that shows her birds. She was kept in a black & blue flock, making her Bl/bl+.

I have bred my Ameraucana roo over her. Though perhaps I have discovered he is actually a mudblood and I’ve been lied to as per how most ameraucana exchanges go. This was a casual ameraucana breeder, but only does that breed so we said why not. My roo presented silver, but we suspected recessive gold due to his brassiness. Maybe also his black seems blue now that he is older. e+? S? s+?

10 chicks were a mix of blue and black, no surprises there, however our very last chick stunningly came out yellow. Splash? Wheaten? What can this tell me about his genes? Could he be masking a gold/red/wheaten vibe? Or does this indicate anything about my hen that may be awry?

I also have recently read that breeding with a silver roo is typically discouraged among the Ameraucana groups due to leakage? I, of course, read this after my eggs were already in the incubator. All that being said, he is an excellent rooster (our third, finally got an awesome one) that his personality is too precious to discard. In the future, would it be best (casually breeding wise) only to hatch out hens from a certain colour? Silvers? Wheaten? Is there no point now knowing he is just throwing “Easter Eggers”?

Apologize for the long post, but wanted to give as many details as possible in case I’m missing something obvious. Thanks so much for advice and discussions! Will add photos in next post!

Ameraucana silver is one of the hardest to work with and you can get throw backs. Red/Gold leakage can be a problem that is hidden with them.

There is some intrest in a project color of blue silvers. Not as much as say ermine but there is some. I would try to get silver hens and have him over those unless you want to participate in a project color.

P.S. forgot to add blues can hide alot because they are basically black.

P.P.S. He has a modified pea comb. There is something else in there that is not Ameraucana. It's possible something was added to the line to strengthen something and he's a throw back. He looks like my blue Ameraucana x Golden Phoenix.

 

[NagemTX]

Also you know what he really looks like a silver/gold blue berchin. Like a lemon blue berchin. Look at the Brown Red(red/gold berchin) Ameraucanas and then look at him.

He still has that modified pea comb but still a beautiful bird. It's a color I would work on in Ameraucanas.

Brown Red for example: not my photo or bird.