Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Pathfinders]

many strains In Reds you use the quill color as the gage for darkness. The darker the quill the darker the surface color and you can not get it any darker. The under color should be a dark rich color. many We see strains loosing their surface color in bantams as we see on this tread many large fowl Reds are right in the zone.

I am behind on this thread, mea culpa.

The concept of undercolor is a key thing in Buckeyes, and if any of you Masters will help shed light on this, I'd be grateful.

In Buckeyes, we are required to have a bar of slate in the backs of the birds. The Standard reads: "UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Red, except for back which should show a bar of slate."

Now, color in Buckeyes is a very controversial thing (and I am not trying to be controversial at all, I assure you!) Some breeders feel that the bar of slate influences the overall color of the bird. I do not agree with that contention. In my experience, you can have a Buckeye with proper color that has almost no bar of slate, and you can have Buckeyes with proper bar of slate who have incorrect color. I do not find a correlation. Others disagree with me.

What I'd like to know is, if anyone knows, what causes the bar of slate to appear? And what effect does its presence have on overall body color? If someone could answer those questions for me definitively, I'd be hugely grateful. I am not a poultry genetics wiz, and don't know what gene causes the bar of slate, wish I did.

And thanks!

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: I don't know the answer to your question, but it appears an almost century old debate as seen here .
Page 596, the latter half of the article, discusses Buckeye color.
Everybody's Poultry Magazine, Volume 26 1921
Characteristics of our leading breeds Part VI The Rhode Island Red
http://tinyurl.com/m2jp7bz Pages 595 thru 596

 

[Pathfinders]

I don't know the answer to your question, but it appears an almost century old debate as seen here .
Page 596, the latter half of the article, discusses Buckeye color.
Everybody's Poultry Magazine, Volume 26 1921
Characteristics of our leading breeds Part VI The Rhode Island Red
http://tinyurl.com/m2jp7bz Pages 595 thru 596

That's just wonderful, thanks so much! I love finding old historical articles about the Buckeye, and I appreciate the help.

 

[3riverschick]

From what I read of the article it seems the bar of slate is to distinguish the Buckeye palette from the RIR and Red Sussex? Surely that can't be the only reason?

 

[armorfirelady]

Dragon lady- I thought of you today while we were at the fair. They were showing BO but the hens didn't have the size or color of yours. The cock was big but still his coloring was lighter. Still pretty but nothing like yours.

I want to say after lurking on this thread for awhile I tend to critique the birds at our local fair. The coloring was no where near what you guys have, very few varieties either. I saw 2 of those long legged giant birds who's name starts with an A......I think Walt has them? At first thought it was an ill chicken till it stood up.

 

[thedragonlady]

Dragon lady- I thought of you today while we were at the fair. They were showing BO but the hens didn't have the size or color of yours. The cock was big but still his coloring was lighter. Still pretty but nothing like yours.

I want to say after lurking on this thread for awhile I tend to critique the birds at our local fair. The coloring was no where near what you guys have, very few varieties either. I saw 2 of those long legged giant birds who's name starts with an A......I think Walt has them? At first thought it was an ill chicken till it stood up.

Thank you ! I would hope that none of my owners would leave my kids at a fair for a week, or 10 days though.A small win is simply not worth the risk from what I've seen at most fairs.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
Ok, I have been doing some looking around on the subject of the purpose and effect of the slate bar in the under-color of the Buckeye fowl. The first thing that struck me was the lack of articles purposely discussing cause and effect of the slate bar. Lots of hits stating it was supposed to be there, but very little about the "whys" of it.
Next question was "why" no articles on this subject if it was so important to be included in the SOP? I have found most hallmarks in breeds have their own lit resource somewhere. Then I noticed that multiple breeds which required "rich" colors also required either a colored bar or a colored hue to the under-color. Ok, so this has something to do with the intensity of the surface color Indeed, in 1952, the USDA description of the Buckeye states "rich mahogany bay" as a main plumage color. (italics in quote are mine)
USDA Farmers' Bulletin - Issues 2051-2075 -
This is issue 2065, Year: 1952, Page 13
Breeds of Chickens for Meat and Egg Production
Buckeye
"The Buckeye originated in Ohio. This breed was named for the State in which it originated and the "Buckeye State." It has a medium-sized pea comb. The plumage is an even shade of rich mahogany bay in all sections except the unexposed primaries and secondaries and the main tail feathers contain black. The male sickles and coverts are bay shading into black near the tail. The under-color is red except for a slate bar in the back feathers.
The shanks and toes are yellow; the beak is yellow shaded with reddish brown."

Getting closer. Then I came across the quotation below:
Principles and Practice of Poultry Culture
By John Henry Robinson
Page 534:
In a very literal sense, under-color in all birds with strong color is reserve color. Unless intensified by mating and mixture with a color as strong as or stronger than itself, the tendency in all plumage colors is to grow weaker. There is also a tendency for color, if present, to come to the surface. If all the color is at the surface, as it is in some buff and gray birds, a very slight loss of color will cause marked deterioration in surface color.

So this is my educated guess. The slate bar on the under-color of the Buckeye is a genetic earmark that the color in the bird is robust. Not needy in any genetic color way or having the color intensity of the bird waning. A Buckeye can be a proper color without the slate bar in the under-color. However, the lack of the slate bar is a warning to the breeder to mate this bird with another of robust color (denoted by the slate bar) so the robust color of the family does not start to wane.
Ch. 3 and esp. Page 32 below seem to bear this guess out:
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls; a book
covering outbreeding [!] inbreeding and line breeding
of all recognized breeds of domestic fowls, with chart, 1912 (1912)
Author: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
http://tinyurl.com/m3eeud8
Chapter 3 : Red and Buff Breeds
starting on page 29 and esp. page 32.
Card also discusses how the concept of "even shade" explains how the mating should be set up for best color result.
Best,
Karen

 

[cgmccary]

Quote: I agree with your educated guess. If one ignores the slate bar in the under-color of the back of the Buckeye, color will deteriorate & a half white feather will appear here or there in time, and I see other things going wrong as to color. However, by the same token, allowing slate under-coloring to grow in your flock to all sections of the Buckeye (i.e. more than just the back under-color) throws things off too -- the slate bar only in the under-color of back is there for a reason-- it seems to balance the color properly -- the black where it should be & the proper shade of mahogany bay.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Thank you for this great explanation! I did not know about the white feather. That's really interesting.
Best,
Karen

 

[thedragonlady]

Hi,
Ok, I have been doing some looking around on the subject of the purpose and effect of the slate bar in the under-color of the Buckeye fowl. The first thing that struck me was the lack of articles purposely discussing cause and effect of the slate bar. Lots of hits stating it was supposed to be there, but very little about the "whys" of it.
Next question was "why" no articles on this subject if it was so important to be included in the SOP? I have found most hallmarks in breeds have their own lit resource somewhere. Then I noticed that multiple breeds which required "rich" colors also required either a colored bar or a colored hue to the under-color. Ok, so this has something to do with the intensity of the surface color Indeed, in 1952, the USDA description of the Buckeye states "rich mahogany bay" as a main plumage color. (italics in quote are mine)
USDA Farmers' Bulletin - Issues 2051-2075 -
This is issue 2065, Year: 1952, Page 13
Breeds of Chickens for Meat and Egg Production
Buckeye
"The Buckeye originated in Ohio. This breed was named for the State in which it originated and the "Buckeye State." It has a medium-sized pea comb. The plumage is an even shade of rich mahogany bay in all sections except the unexposed primaries and secondaries and the main tail feathers contain black. The male sickles and coverts are bay shading into black near the tail. The under-color is red except for a slate bar in the back feathers.
The shanks and toes are yellow; the beak is yellow shaded with reddish brown."

Getting closer. Then I came across the quotation below:
Principles and Practice of Poultry Culture
By John Henry Robinson
Page 534:
In a very literal sense, under-color in all birds with strong color is reserve color. Unless intensified by mating and mixture with a color as strong as or stronger than itself, the tendency in all plumage colors is to grow weaker. There is also a tendency for color, if present, to come to the surface. If all the color is at the surface, as it is in some buff and gray birds, a very slight loss of color will cause marked deterioration in surface color.

So this is my educated guess. The slate bar on the under-color of the Buckeye is a genetic earmark that the color in the bird is robust. Not needy in any genetic color way or having the color intensity of the bird waning. A Buckeye can be a proper color without the slate bar in the under-color. However, the lack of the slate bar is a warning to the breeder to mate this bird with another of robust color (denoted by the slate bar) so the robust color of the family does not start to wane.
Ch. 3 and esp. Page 32 below seem to bear this guess out:
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls; a book
covering outbreeding [!] inbreeding and line breeding
of all recognized breeds of domestic fowls, with chart, 1912 (1912)
Author: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
http://tinyurl.com/m3eeud8
Chapter 3 : Red and Buff Breeds
starting on page 29 and esp. page 32.
Card also discusses how the concept of "even shade" explains how the mating should be set up for best color result.
Best,
Karen

Under color is KEY in keeping good surface color, especially in Buffs ! That slate bar is a color marker, rather like a touch of pepper in female buff's tails. Loose it completely, and you loose the good surface color.