Calico Cochin Thread

[mibirder]

One of the difficulties with black is that it can be produced on any of the five e alleles and can be produced by different combinations of black enhancers. Karen is correct in that the basic pigment of black is dominant, however, one also can have black as a recessive as with the Blue gene. In addition some researchers have found a group of genes tentatively called 'rb 'or recessive black. Generally the recessive alleles do/can have some affect when heterozygous. An all black or nearly all black bird likely has black enhances that account for the coloration. I don't think that black can be accounted for with a single gene other than with the Blue alleles which is the recessive occurrence

Dave

Edit Getting back to Mottle - it is the Mottle gene that gives the white tipped feathers on the desired MF pattern. Mottle inhibits the production of pigments on the feather, in this case just at the feather tip when non hysterical Mottle (normal Mottle) is used.

 

[ki4got]

One of the difficulties with black is that it can be produced on any of the five e alleles and can be produced by different combinations of black enhancers. Karen is correct in that the basic pigment of black is dominant, however, one also can have black as a recessive as with the Blue gene. In addition some researchers have found a group of genes tentatively called 'rb 'or recessive black. Generally the recessive alleles do/can have some affect when heterozygous. An all black or nearly all black bird likely has black enhances that account for the coloration. I don't think that black can be accounted for with a single gene other than with the Blue alleles which is the recessive occurrence

Dave

Edit Getting back to Mottle - it is the Mottle gene that gives the white tipped feathers on the desired MF pattern. Mottle inhibits the production of pigments on the feather, in this case just at the feather tip when non hysterical Mottle (normal Mottle) is used.

actually, what you're referring to are multiple loci for different mutations... black blue splash and lavender (self blue) are all based on E (extended black) and the bbs and lavender genes simply modify the expression of the color (eumelanin inhibitors). there may also be eumelanin enhancers as well, but that will just vary the depth of the color in certain areas (the melanizing gene causes a much darker hackle markings in blues, for example).

and blue is not a recessive gene. it's also dominant... the primary recessive gene common in recognized cochin varieties is mottled. the e-locus genes have varying degrees of dominance, but E is the most dominant, followed by ER (birchen), eWh (wheaten), eb (partridge - not to be confused with the partridge variety of cochins, which involves the pattern gene), then e+ which is the wild type (duckwing).

so a mottled bird is typically E/E mo/mo. E is capable of masking some other mutations, so breeding an E bird with a non-E bird isn't always predictable. the E (again, extended black) is NOT capable of masking mottled, barred or the eumelanin restrictors like blue/splash and self blue (aka lavender). dun/khaki(incompletely dominant, much like blue/splash) and chocolate (sex-linked recessive) may also fall under the eumelanin restrictors, but i'm not too familiar with those mutations personally.

as regarding the calico/mille fleur cochins, the basis of the variety is mottled, with added columbian. individually, the genes express one way but when you start combining mutations, you sometimes get exaggerated or entirely different results. like i was saying, since mille fleur already includes the columbian gene, to get the 'hysterical' calico, it's quite possible that the Db gene may also be involved, since it's also a columbian-like restrictor.

 

[mibirder]

I guess that point I'm trying to (un)clearly make, is that to look at a black colored chicken and make the decision that it's blackness is dominant is not necessarily true.

BBS and Lavendar are not exclusive to Extended Black base hence Silver/Gold Birchen as well as the blue varieties of them are ER based, Self blue can be found on even eb based and Lavendar is a separate gene from the blue alleles, I think, can be with any e base.

I've not said blue is recessive, but have said that black is the recessive allele at that locus.

I believe that e+ is dominant to eWh and eb in many situations. (these three seem to have varying degrees of dominance over each other in different situations) Also the term Brown is used with eb although it is the basis for pencilled brown which is usually called partridge. And just to confuse terms, I think there is a duckwing that is also called partridge!

I think blue is grouped into the diluter genes rather than the restrictions. Diluter changes the shade and restrictions prevent color on specific parts of the bird.

Now that all ths is clear as mud, I need to go clean coops.

Dave

 

[sandiklaws]

I guess that point I'm trying to (un)clearly make, is that to look at a black colored chicken and make the decision that it's blackness is dominant is not necessarily true.

BBS and Lavendar are not exclusive to Extended Black base hence Silver/Gold Birchen as well as the blue varieties of them are ER based, Self blue can be found on even eb based and Lavendar is a separate gene from the blue alleles, I think, can be with any e base.

I've not said blue is recessive, but have said that black is the recessive allele at that locus.

I believe that e+ is dominant to eWh and eb in many situations. (these three seem to have varying degrees of dominance over each other in different situations) Also the term Brown is used with eb although it is the basis for pencilled brown which is usually called partridge. And just to confuse terms, I think there is a duckwing that is also called partridge!

I think blue is grouped into the diluter genes rather than the restrictions. Diluter changes the shade and restrictions prevent color on specific parts of the bird.

Now that all ths is clear as mud, I need to go clean coops.

Dave

...and this is why it is so much more fun to just breed and take notes on who produced what.... can barely wrap my head around all this genetics mumbo jumbo

but thanks for explaining it as I love learning

 

[southpaw52]

just curious....would he be called a calico?

 

[ki4got]

I think where you are confusing the dominance/recessiveness of mutations, is by considering them variations on the same locus...

there are 18 primary loci involved in chicken genetics for color. each loci may display multiple mutations, such as the e-locus. within that one locus, yes you will have variations of dominance where one will be dominant over another but be 'recessive' to yet another.

generally, each mutation has a set function in how it changes the feather coloration or pattern. BUT with multiple loci involved, then one gene may be entirely hidden by the other, or they may work in layers, if you will, with one modifying the other. dominant black is one mutation that is capable of 'hiding' some other genes, but recessive white is far more effective at masking all other mutations that may be carried. blue/splash, for example, modifies the expression of the black, by reducing the intensity of the pigments laid down on the feather's structure.

other mutations, by themselves express in one way, but when combined with another, give a totally different picture. Take the pattern gene (on a red-based bird), by itself gives a nice penciling effect to the feather (aka partridge). the melanizing gene intensifies black pigments found in the hackles and saddles of a bird, while columbian restricts black pigmentation only to the hackle wing and tails (ie buff columbian) of the bird. combine all 3, and you have a bird with each feather having a clear center and a black border around the edge (gold laced). take away the columbian pattern, and the melanizing gene reverses the penciled pattern to become double laced (like in double laced cornish). take the melanizing gene away from a laced bird, you get the mille fleur (found in several breeds now).

because there are so many loci that can carry mutations, it's hard to predict accurately, at times, how different mutations will affect each other, because it entirely depends on what else is present but might be hidden or modified in such a way that it's not recognizably there. the best you can do is use the information available to you, such as a birds' parentage or what it's offspring look like when bred to other birds.

 

[huntinwidow]

New to this thread and first year with bantam cochins. Ya'll please forgive me if this has been answered.

I am breeding a mottled and a mille fleur hen with a mottled roo. What colors can I expect from these pairings?

I just can't get my head around all this genetic gobbledy gook. It's all greek to me. I was able to keep a few chicks for about 6 wks. Long enough for them to feather somewhat. I had all kinds of unexpected colors. Some even appeared to have some barring.
Most of the chicks are one of three patterns at hatch. Black with a little white usually on the chest, Bronzish brown with a little white, or yellow with a brown chipmunk stripe.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[County Boy]

just curious....would he be called a calico?

I would consider im more of a lemon blue splash but you would have to know what the parents were.

 

[ki4got]

New to this thread and first year with bantam cochins. Ya'll please forgive me if this has been answered.

I am breeding a mottled and a mille fleur hen with a mottled roo. What colors can I expect from these pairings?

I just can't get my head around all this genetic gobbledy gook. It's all greek to me. I was able to keep a few chicks for about 6 wks. Long enough for them to feather somewhat. I had all kinds of unexpected colors. Some even appeared to have some barring.
Most of the chicks are one of three patterns at hatch. Black with a little white usually on the chest, Bronzish brown with a little white, or yellow with a brown chipmunk stripe.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

all 3 happen... my own chicks tends toward the brown, but the others just depend on the e-locus gene the line is based on... and if the parents are a mixture of e-locus mutations, anything's possible.

an explanation of the basic mutations and how a few interract can be found in my sig.

 

[Frizzled Pink]

I would consider im more of a lemon blue splash but you would have to know what the parents were.

I would call him very handsome