Chocolate Serama Breeders - dun and blue can be included here as well

[austinhart123]

also, before someone beats me too it, i know that the choc lace may not be "choclate" genotype, but all i care about is phenotype, especially when its just for fun and not breeding to a color standard

 

[smoothmule]

I would Love to find a solid chocolate or a solid black split rooster from many generations of black to black or chocolate breeding with excellent type to breed to Truffles then take a split roo back to her to get started.............I know I'm dreamin

. I am waiting for the right black rooster with several generations of black to black breeding that is the best type I can buy though so I'm keeping my eye out for chicks hatched this spring.

The rooster I'm using with my chocolate hen now is blue wheaten and he has a single mottling gene so if my hen has a mottling gene, I'll see a lot of mottling. I know I won't see any chocolate with this first breeding so I'm going to have to wait and hope nothing happens to Truffles while I try to get the rooster I need. I have no idea of her background so I'm anxious to see what she produces but my final goal is to develop a line of solid chocolates so I'm going to use what I already have and keep looking for that black rooster. I do have one black Serama chick hatched from eggs that were given to me when I picked up Truffles and the black hen Bugsy. Could be that I already have a black cockerel that I can use and could even be out of Truffles herself. I guess I'll know for sure if I got chocolate from that cross......with my luck the chick is a pullet though.

In the meantime, if I get some chicks hatched (meaning nothing crazy happens and they don't hatch) they will all be for sale and I'll offer them here as well as to the SCNA members. I'm likely going to keep one cockerel if there are any typey solid blacks.

 

[scbatz33]

question: I have a frizzle roo. He's got tons of colors - and PLEASE forgive my ignorance on names for coloring - anywho, he's not chocolate, but he looks similar to the one HenThymes posted........so he's covering a splash oeg and a mottled oeg...the offspring results so far are blacks. lots and lots of solid black babies. Oh and two blues. Is this common? should I expect he will only produce solid colored chicks?

I know it's not quite the same topic, but I have no idea about color genetics in birds that have such variety!

I found a pic of him - it's not super great.....

pic of the offspring

frizzling aside, I'm curious about the color, or lack of color in the chicks

 

[smoothmule]

I think it should be important to know the difference between actual chocolate and dun. If you have a Serama it could be either chocolate or dun but it's hard enough to breed for a color with everyone using the wrong terminology. That said, I understand how hard it can be to look at a Serama and be able to say, hey that is chocolate or hey that's dun. I see a lot of them that just look nothing like what I expect chocolate to look like "BUT" it doesn't matter if it breeds like chocolate then the appearance may be because of other genes modifying the way it looks.

Those breeding the dun Serama's, cannot get the same results as breeding for chocolate. They are not chocolate and, in my opinion, should not be called chocolate. It shouldn't be that hard to discover the difference once they're bred but, again, Serama's will be Serama's.

Plus, there may be breeders out there trying to cross 2 "chocolates" but one is chocolate and one is dun so WOW, what do you do? Except enjoy the crazy colors. I prefer the crazy colors but I've set a goal to work on some real chocolates, solid ones that are good enough to show and to breed and set the color and type so others who want them can use their good black Serama's to make more. Got a lot of work ahead but I'm hoping to find a few others with the same goal to make it go a little easier, and more fun. Along the way, I expect to have a lot of extra's that don't make the cut but still carry or show the gene and they will be for sale.

Here is an outline of the way Chocolate breeds

The Chocolate gene is sex linked and Dun is not.

Chocolate cockerel + Chocolate hen = 100% Chocolate ****the finish line****

Chocolate cockerel + Black hen = all Chocolate hens & all Chocolate Split cockerels (Black in colour but carry the Chocolate gene)

Black cockerel + Chocolate hen = all Chocolate Split males & all Black hens ****This is where I am now*****

Chocolate Split Cockerel + Chocolate hen = 25% Chocolate hens, 25% Black hens, 25% Chocolate cockerels & 25% Chocolate split cockerels***My second generation******

Chocolate Split Cockerel + Black hen = 25% Chocolate hens, 25% Black hens, 25% Black cockerels & 25% Chocolate split cockerels ***I can take one of my split cockerels back to the black hen Bugsy *****

Chocolate Split which only appears in the Cockerels, they are Black in colour but carry the Chocolate gene

 

[key west chick]

So whats the visual difference between chocolate and brown? Is a brown serama chocolate? What makes a chocolate, chocolate?

 

[smoothmule]

Austin,
It's not an issue as long as people who buy from you understand they are not chocolate. I would prefer to call them what they are but I wouldn't know for sure either. I appreciate you stating that your's is phenotype chocolate rather than genotype and yours don't have to use color to be attractive, they're very nice overall. I love that chocolate exchequered hen, what is that? Is it the same as splash? I like it whatever it is. The little gold laced is a cutie too, there was a hen exactly like her at the show in Cape Girardeau. The chocolate ginger is an example of what I'd like to see in my hens. I like her type! Do you have any like her for sale?


It's up to all of us to educate ourselves if we start on any project if we're serious. I like any of them that are well balanced, correct and have great temperaments. I want to work the color in on what I already have. I am very happy with my roosters. I know I could definitely use some better hens here. I have talked with other breeders about this and it looks like the Serama's I have can produce great roosters but the hens are not as good as they need to be. I'm working on that too. I may buy a pair of black Serama's that I can use from both ends of the crosses to keep the type from deteriorating.

Scbatz,
Like most Serama's, yours may have so many genes it's impossible to tell but I don't see chocolate or dun there.

 

[smoothmule]

Keywest,
The best way I can put it, in my own words, is that chocolate is a sex linked color gene. That means they reliably reproduce a certain way when you breed a certain way (See above breeding chart). I know there are a lot of genes that can really modify (change) the way the color appears but it will still follow those rules when bred. If they don't, they're not really chocolate.

For instance, if you bred a chocolate looking hen to a black rooster and got any chocolate looking chicks, you didn't get lucky, that hen is not really chocolate. The rule states that breeding a black rooster to a chocolate hen, all the hens are black and the roosters are chocolate splits (black roosters that carry one copy of the gene) It's actually pretty simple and accurate when there are not a lot of other genes involved......and we're talking Serama here so of course there are, lol.

Dun has it's own set of rules and one difference that is notable is the way it is darker with one copy of the dun gene and lighter with 2 copies. It doesn't work that way with the chocolate gene. That said, I know someone may comment that they had a chocolate that was lighter or darker than the parents but the difference is it's true chocolate to true black and if either parent has "other" genes, those genes may affect the way chocolate appears to the eye. They are still genetically chocolate, but modified to appear lighter than the parent with a gene that dilutes like the blue gene or dun.

The fact that so many Serama's have so many of these genes makes it difficult but not impossible to figure out, although it could take a few generations to show you what they're made of. I hope that wasn't too technical.

In the end, Everyone has a right to make every color they want and I LOVE that too. I'll be mixing it up here too but I wanted a project and this has become that project. I think it's attainable with no outside help but I'd love to speed it up a notch if I can. Also, I think it's a good idea for anyone who is wanting a particular color to either decide that they don't care about the genetics as long as they like what they see or do as I'm doing to learn as much as I can and go for making a color as a standard that can be replicated consistently........then mixed up again, lol.

 

[Henk69]

I would like to see prove that any serama carries dun.
Sexlinked chocolate has been proven.
Dun is a pretty rare gene too, so why would it be in serama too?
Before we proved the sexlinked chocolate, the brown was thought to be dun, but was it ever?

Blue and solid are not typical for pure seramas.

Dun and chocolate combined would give a new color: beige

 

[smoothmule]

Henk,
I am hearing from other breeders that their birds who look chocolate visually are not producing what should be expected for a sex linked gene. What color would they be then? I figured that if they do not follow the rules that a sex linked gene follows, then they are not chocolate. I would guess then that if they cannot be proven chocolate by offspring, then the phenotype is simply a combination of genes that produce visually similar Serama's?
Your help is very appreciated. To prove or disprove chocolate, or dun, what would you need to know about the parents (when possible) or offspring?

 

[Henk69]

Quote:
It could be dun allright. Just haven't heard the evidence.
If the rooster is brown and does produce black daughters, it must (will probably) be dun.