Color Genetics (Orps), Who can you really trust to sell you top show Birds ???

[Lane Rae]

SO here is the issue.....

We are "dog" people. My boyfriend is an AKC pro handler of more than 30 years, I am a handler and breeder for over 33 and we have decided to get "into" chickens!

SO we looked over breeds, decided on Orpingtons and are building our coop and getting ready to move forward (would love input on the requirements on that also). Now show people and breeders being what they are I can imagine this is very similar to the dog world. There are people out there that speculate on what colors can be, or should be crossed, and think they have show quality birds when they actually have no idea.

We need a REAL mentor! I mean someone that has been breeding and possibly exhibiting chickens for ages and is willing (for pay if needed) to fully explain what can and should be done. If you are in another breed then super but we do need to know what colors in Orps can and should be bred together, what happens if I do the "no no" crosses and then can tell me how to determine show quality birds when I purchase, how old the birds have to be before determining if they are really show quality, how to know if the seller really knows what they are talking about so we won't get talked into purchasing less than top show quality (besides color of course) birds.

Now this may seem like an easy answer to you if you say "Just join your breed club and go by their recommendations" but it isn't that easy in dogs so I am assuming it isn't in chickens either. We want to start with a few good quality birds for experience then after we get our bearings want top show birds through purchase or production. Often in a dog club Jane will recommend Judy's birds just because she does show and they are friends not because they have the BEST birds I can find.

SO... if anyone can give us some insight so we can cut through the crap and get right to what is important and true we would surely appreciate it.

 

[sourland]

Go to a local show/shows and see who is winning and whose birds YOU like. Start with the best birds available and try to enlist the breeder as a mentor. Just like 'dog' people 'chicken' people can be funny so try to enlist someone who has an amenable personality. I would also recommend joining a local poultry club. Good luck.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Colors are easy.
In orps the only approved varieties are
Black
Blue
Buff
White.
Breed buff to buff only. Buff doesn't work well with the other colors. It would be a headache to mess with crossing those.
Blue and black is interchangeable.
If I was showing black I would stick with black to black. Blue can be used but I wouldn't unless I had to. I think long term blue in black line decrease the intensity of the black. Just my opinion.
Blue to blue produces blue, black and splash. Splash isn't showable but can be value able.
Look up BBS breeding to see how blue breeds.
If I showed blue I would use all three colors BBS in breeding.
Recessive White is recessive so takes a copy from each parent.when expressed it covers blue and black so you can bring in BBS to improve a white line. Or you can stick with white to white and produce all white offspring and not worry about F1s being carriers that need to be breed back to white.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

A bird is show quality if it meets the standard of perfection for the breed. Pullets and cockerels show best when over 24 weeks old. They've filed out well by then and have all adult plumage. A top quality breeder bird can't be absolutely determined until after it's first adult molt. So you could have a great bird for showing then things change a little after the first major molt. A sure breeder will show itself at 1.5-2 years of age. It's when you know for certain the true traits of the bird.

On the topic of breeder quality it's not necessarily the perfect bird you want to breed. Better results are obtained by compensarry matings. And in the idea your constantly attempting to improve the flock a bird that's a bit longer or taller or what have you is exactly what your flock needs to move it closer to perfection. But this is all a life long study and nothing to get mired in now. Simply to note that the breeding the closest to SOP birds will beget very good quality offspring but improvement is typically done with a bird that is a bit off from standard and what your flock needs.

Lurk around forums of the breed of your choice, you'll soon enough get a handle on where the better quality birds are sourced from. Go to poultry shows, chat it up with the breeders, look at the high ranked birds and in that way you'll have an better grasp of what the Standard of Perfection is talking about. Oh and buy a copy of Standard of Perfection. Read the intro pages, then read them again and again. Those first chapters are very informative. And of course there will be a section on your breed and further divided by variety.

Excepting lavender color there should be no reason to cross color varieties. Blue varieties breed blue, black and splash. It's a great variety as you get variety of color in your flock. The blue color is the only one allowed to show but you need the splash and black to breed to to get the hue of blue your going for and then maintain it. Big fan of Blue. The problem with it is it's a little challenging for beginners and the quality of birds in the fancier varieties typically is not nearly as good as the solid colors.

Start with solid color variety of your chosen breed. Trust me it's not "easy" to breed for body type. There is much to learn and no reason to throw in fancy varieties to make it nearly impossible to maintain the line. If I were you I'd go the Black. It's the original color Cook chose for his Orpington. The quality of solid color birds will be better. The white Plymouth Rocks are far superior to any of the other varieties for example.

 

[ButtonquailGirl14]

Colors are easy.
In orps the only approved varieties are
Black
Blue
Buff
White.
Breed buff to buff only. Buff doesn't work well with the other colors. It would be a headache to mess with crossing those.
Blue and black is interchangeable.
If I was showing black I would stick with black to black. Blue can be used but I wouldn't unless I had to. I think long term blue in black line decrease the intensity of the black. Just my opinion.
Blue to blue produces blue, black and splash. Splash isn't showable but can be value able.
Look up BBS breeding to see how blue breeds.
If I showed blue I would use all three colors BBS in breeding.
Recessive White is recessive so takes a copy from each parent.when expressed it covers blue and black so you can bring in BBS to improve a white line. Or you can stick with white to white and produce all white offspring and not worry about F1s being carriers that need to be breed back to white.

are you sure lavender orps aren't approved?? they seem to be a VERY popular rare show breed.

 

[ButtonquailGirl14]

SO here is the issue.....

We are "dog" people. My boyfriend is an AKC pro handler of more than 30 years, I am a handler and breeder for over 33 and we have decided to get "into" chickens!

SO we looked over breeds, decided on Orpingtons and are building our coop and getting ready to move forward (would love input on the requirements on that also). Now show people and breeders being what they are I can imagine this is very similar to the dog world. There are people out there that speculate on what colors can be, or should be crossed, and think they have show quality birds when they actually have no idea.

We need a REAL mentor! I mean someone that has been breeding and possibly exhibiting chickens for ages and is willing (for pay if needed) to fully explain what can and should be done. If you are in another breed then super but we do need to know what colors in Orps can and should be bred together, what happens if I do the "no no" crosses and then can tell me how to determine show quality birds when I purchase, how old the birds have to be before determining if they are really show quality, how to know if the seller really knows what they are talking about so we won't get talked into purchasing less than top show quality (besides color of course) birds.

Now this may seem like an easy answer to you if you say "Just join your breed club and go by their recommendations" but it isn't that easy in dogs so I am assuming it isn't in chickens either. We want to start with a few good quality birds for experience then after we get our bearings want top show birds through purchase or production. Often in a dog club Jane will recommend Judy's birds just because she does show and they are friends not because they have the BEST birds I can find.

SO... if anyone can give us some insight so we can cut through the crap and get right to what is important and true we would surely appreciate it.

IF you get nice quaility birds, LET ME KNOW!!! maybe i could get some hatching eggs from you! i have had the hardest time finding show birds!

 

[The Moonshiner]

I'm sure.
I've shown orpingtons. Lavenders are popular. At this point not rare at all. Next to buff they are the easiest to locate. Not a show breed at all. Not a show able variety and some of the farthest from the standard orps out there.
Lavender still needs a lot of work and that's coming from someone that loves lavender birds and raised lav orps for about 4 years.
Buff is the best to show for beginners.
Like stated buff needs to only be bred to buffs so only one color to worry about. And yes you can concentrate on type when not worrying about color genetics.
Buff are by a landslide the most popular color shown.
Tons more buff birds available and more breeders to learn from and purchase from.
Lavender as well as the other 2 dozen color/varieties showing up are useless in this conversation.
They're not show able and bring nothing to the breeding pens.
The birds that come closest to the standard are always the acceptable varieties.

 

[ButtonquailGirl14]

i guess i am partial, but Lavender orpingtons ARE A RARE BREED! that is why you can get a buff for free but the cheapest lavender orpingtons are 20$!(that i have seen, which i look all the time) i think i am just bios, but i Really love them, and if you get the right quality i don't think they need alot of work. but then again i am probably just bios.

 

[The Moonshiner]

If you check hatcheries or CL or whatever the most commonly found is buff. Second is lavender. Anyone can call anything rare but as far as orpingtons are concerned of all the varieties/colors out there lavender are more common and easiest to obtain of them all except for buffs.
I can't see that as rare. I've gotten buff roosters free and I've got lavender roosters for free.
Right now in my area buffs fetch $3 for chicks and lavender go for $7. Someone even has gold laced for $12 but you can't find blacks or blues at all.
Rare is in the eye of the beholder.
Ever been to a show? Go and look at the buffs being showed and see if you think any of the lavender out there compare. I'm going to say very few com close. Many you wouldn't even recognize as the same breed.

 

[ButtonquailGirl14]

it must be different in wa, because i can find blues, blacks, whites, jubile, laced, and buff for 3-7$ a pice but lavenders are a minimum of 20$. this will exept some roos that are 15$ for lavender.