Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[NYREDS]

I didn't show my Cream Legbars this weekend to win anything. I showed my Legbars because,

1) ChicKat keeps sending me gentle reminders of all the Shows in my area and asks me if I am going to show Cream Legbars at the show.

2) I met a Lady at the Blue Bonnet Classic Show 10 weeks ago that wanted to show her Cream Legbars at this show but didn't think there would be a category for them. I told her I was going to the show and if she would show her Cream Legbars, that I would bring some too so that she wouldn't have any chance of being the only one there with Legbars.

3) I wanted to get the feed back on the type of my birds. The SOP committee spent 100's of hours putting together draft 1 of the proposed SOP (and now have a draft 2 too) and when I started reading it I did not have the vocabulary to understand what had been put together or the knowledge and experience to evaluate how closely my birds fit the standard or what areas my flock needed the most work. I figured a Judged would be able to read the standard and look at my birds and be able to pick out where they met the descriptions and where they didn't.

4) I wanted to show other breeders and the public what true Cream colored Legbars look like. Seeing the birds up close and personal removes all the camera angle factor, the computer screen resolution factor, the lighting factor, etc.

It would have been nice to get some clear direction from the judge on if I was going the correct direction with what I am selecting in my flock, but I really could care less that I was disqualified since it was for something that I knew I was not doing wrong. Hearing the Mother of our 4H boy who traveled 4+ hours from Dallas with his Cream Legbar, say when she arrived at the show and was entering the building, "wow that pullet has really bright colors", was enough to let me know that the whole day was worth it. Hundreds of people must have walked by and seen the same thing. Not a washed out pale variety, but a bright attractive bird (that was proudly breaking all the rules by sporting a top knot with her single comb).

Many Judges are happy to talk to people about their breeding programs & to offer feedback & suggestions for improvements. Had I been the Judge in this situation I too would have been at a loss as,again, the is no accepted standard for the breed. That's the bottom line: w/o an accepted standard no Judge can meaningfully exaluate birds beyond general condition.

ETA: "really bright colours" are nice to look at but there's much more to standardized birds than that. Lots of the cross bred birds that get pictured on this site have pretty bright colours as do the members of many flocks of barnyard mutts. When I was a kid I had a flock of "Banties" cross bred bantams that came in every colour imaginable. Very brightly coloured birds with no 2 alike, but I never considered showing them. This portion of your comment suggests that less colourful birds are somehow devalued-that really shows a lack of insight into what showing is all about. IMO there's nothing more beautiful than a well bred White Leghorn Male or Black Sumatra female in perfect show condition.
Also, your bird wasn't doing anything proudly, pride reflects a human emotion not available to chickens.

I'm sure many of you will be pleased to know that this will be my last word on Legbars.

 

[GaryDean26]

ETA - cracks me up to picture a pullet breaking the rules.....

Well isn't that what Punnet was going when he showed the Cream Legbar in 1947 at the London Dairy show? Breaking all the rules?

1) He brought a blue egg layer that no one in the UK had shown before.
2) He brought a Cream variety that no one in the UK had shown before
3) He brought a crested single comb breed that really don't go well together and do require a lot of attention to keep the cockerels combs straight and erect, etc. which went against the ideals set for other breeds
4) I am not sure if the Chilean hen had a single comb or a pea comb, but if she had a pea comb he also accomplished quite a feat in breeding a single combed variety with blue eggs since those two genes are linked and cross over only occurs at the ratio of 1:16
5) And on top of all that he brought a breed that was one of the first truly auto-sexing breeds that people had seen.

The Cream Legbar was meant to be something completely different and not follow the norms.

 

[KPenley]

Many Judges are happy to talk to people about their breeding programs & to offer feedback & suggestions for improvements. Had I been the Judge in this situation I too would have been at a loss as,again, the is no accepted standard for the breed. That's the bottom line: w/o an accepted standard no Judge can meaningfully exaluate birds beyond general condition.

ETA: "really bright colours" are nice to look at but there's much more to standardized birds than that. Lots of the cross bred birds that get pictured on this site have pretty bright colours as do the members of many flocks of barnyard mutts. When I was a kid I had a flock of "Banties" cross bred bantams that came in every colour imaginable. Very brightly coloured birds with no 2 alike, but I never considered showing them. This portion of your comment suggests that less colourful birds are somehow devalued-that really shows a lack of insight into what showing is all about. IMO there's nothing more beautiful than a well bred White Leghorn Male or Black Sumatra female in perfect show condition.
Also, your bird wasn't doing anything proudly, pride reflects a human emotion not available to chickens.

I'm sure many of you will be pleased to know that this will be my last word on Legbars.

Like everyone else, you are more than welcome anytime and to clarify, because I think we assumed everyone knew, a copy of the standard is pinned to every Cream Legbar cage for the judges to use to evaluate. But we also understand that doesn't mean every judge has the time or desire to read or study the standard when there are many birds to judge. Best wishes!

 

[GaryDean26]

Quote:

Many Judges are happy to talk to people about their breeding programs & to offer feedback & suggestions for improvements. Had I been the Judge in this situation I too would have been at a loss as,again, the is no accepted standard for the breed. That's the bottom line: w/o an accepted standard no Judge can meaningfully exaluate birds beyond general condition.

ETA: "really bright colours" are nice to look at but there's much more to standardized birds than that. Lots of the cross bred birds that get pictured on this site have pretty bright colours as do the members of many flocks of barnyard mutts. When I was a kid I had a flock of "Banties" cross bred bantams that came in every colour imaginable. Very brightly coloured birds with no 2 alike, but I never considered showing them. This portion of your comment suggests that less colourful birds are somehow devalued-that really shows a lack of insight into what showing is all about. IMO there's nothing more beautiful than a well bred White Leghorn Male or Black Sumatra female in perfect show condition.
Also, your bird wasn't doing anything proudly, pride reflects a human emotion not available to chickens.

I'm sure many of you will be pleased to know that this will be my last word on Legbars.

NYREDS,

I am not sure how much of this or thread you have read, or if you have followed other Legbar discussions, but there has been a lot of criticism about the cream color.

90% of the Legbars flocks in North American are entirely made up of Gold based birds that lack any Cream expression. The few flocks that do have cream colored birds are making the best use of these bird we can to breed towards the PCGB standard for the "cream" color. Some of the owners out there without any cream in their flocks are stating that the Cream color makes the bird look washed out, dull, or unattractive. One of my goals of showing my birds was to show people what "cream" colored birds with barring look like. I took the best conditioned best colored pullet that I had with the goal of making people look twice and pay attention. I accomplished that. We are still educating club members, Breeders, the public, etc. and showing our birds is the best way I know to do that.

No there is not an APA standard for the Cream Legbar, but the judge that was there did not think that was a problem. He told me that the Marans are a recognized breed but they are not in the standards book and he said they won't be until the next addition of the Standards Book comes out which is not likely to happen until 2015. He said that he was very fortunate because he sees 100 Marans at every show he judges in Texas, but that other APA judges don't even have a copy of the Marans standard since it isn't in the 2010 edition and don't know how to judge Marans even though they have been an accepted breed for over two years.

He said that is why it is so important to show our birds long before the breed is recognized so that judges see them and can learn what the breed is. Yes, there will be some open conversation and revisions to the Proposed SOP over the next five plus years, but this is a process not and event. The judge mentioned that 2 years is the minimum of showing our birds for APA consideration, but not to wait. He said to start showing our birds now even if they are not good examples of the breed and still a work in progress.

The intentions of the Cream Legbar Club to propose the breed to the APA for recognition was announce at the APA Board meeting in Ohio October of 2012. We are getting the proposed standard into the hands of Judges prior to the shows where possible and posting the standard on the cage at the show too. The proposed standard is an open dialog and we hope that judges will take the time to review it when judging our birds and give constructive criticism.

We hope that judges will not be using the excuse that the Standard is not in the current Edition of the APA standards book 2 years after the breed has been accepted and judging on condition only (like could currently be the case with some with regards to the Marans) but rather take the opportunity when they are sent the proposed standard prior to judging a meet or at a meet where the standard is posted to read it and if it isn't clear as to what the breed is intended to be to give feed back so we can make revisions.

Note: Color is not the only thing I breed for. I have been evaluating my flock for laying ability and have individually tracked some of my hens for a full year keeping daily logs for production. I have been tracking eggs size, I have been keeping records of mature weights and other physical measurements (length, depth, width, capacity, etc.) to objectively evaluate my flock for breeders. Every flock owner has a different set of goals and different ideas on how to achieve them. I decided to keep the hen with the best color and the hen with the best type from each grow-out group to work with. I had a pullet with better type that I could have showed, but really felt that showing the best colored pullet was more important at this show because there a lots of people with good Legbars with gold plumage, but very few with good cream coloring and I wanted people to see both at the show to get a vision of what they might look like in the coming years as we breed to the breed Standard.

 

[ChicKat]

Many Judges are happy to talk to people about their breeding programs & to offer feedback & suggestions for improvements. Had I been the Judge in this situation I too would have been at a loss as,again, the is no accepted standard for the breed. That's the bottom line: w/o an accepted standard no Judge can meaningfully exaluate birds beyond general condition.
.........
I'm sure many of you will be pleased to know that this will be my last word on Legbars.

NYREDS -

Hope that some day you will reconsider and drop back in and see what progress occurred or didn't occur since your last visit. Although it may have sounded like someone would be pleased if you have shared your last words on legbars - it may just be the case that people are on different levels of poultry experience, viewpoints and expression. In this and in many other places on BYC I value your comments - so please don't write us off entirely.

 

[Rancher3535]

A couple of questions for you all

1. In what class would you place the cream legbars to be judged? Continental?

Trying to learn more from the expert of the breed.

2. When do you start to cull out your chicks/birds for flaws? I know in my wyandottes I almost start at day one with combs and go from there. I have a lot of young males that have what I think are really bad combs. Very over lapped, not straight, undefined spikes, no visible tuft (guess that is what it is called) on the head behind the comb.

3. I usually start with the males in my culling process and wait on the females because they can always be sold off as layers. So when do you start looking at the color of the young bird and start culling there?

If you want you can PVT me with your response so space on the thread is not being taken up on something you may have already discussed.

Rob

 

[KPenley]

A couple of questions for you all

1.  In what class would you place the cream legbars to be judged?  Continental?

Trying to learn more from the expert of the breed.

2.  When do you start to cull out your chicks/birds for flaws?  I know in my wyandottes I almost start at day one with combs and go from there.  I have a lot of young males that have what I think are really bad combs.  Very over lapped, not straight, undefined spikes, no visible tuft (guess that is what it is called) on the head behind the comb.

3.  I usually start with the males in my culling process and wait on the females because they can always be sold off as layers.  So when do you start looking at the color of the young bird and start culling there?

If you want you can PVT me with your response so space on the thread is not being taken up on something you may have already discussed.

Rob

1. English Class
2. Preference. I cull at around 8 or 12 weeks, then around 8 months. Then as needed with choosing breeding pairs. everybody's different though.
3. Again it kind of depends on where you are with your program. I just finished my first year focusing on health and size, so now I'm on to type. Next year will be a color focus for me, but I keep it in mind now because I don't want to have to start over with cream birds back at year one again. I can tell by 12 weeks where a bird will most likely end up.

 

[nicalandia]

I am not sure if the Chilean hen had a single comb or a pea comb, but if she had a pea comb he also accomplished quite a feat in breeding a single combed variety with blue eggs since those two genes are linked and cross over only occurs at the ratio of 1:16

the chilean stock Punnett had at the time were all single combs and the percentage of cross over is 3% at most, you would have to hatch about 100 to expect 1 to 3, or you could get none, you would have to really hatch like 1,000 for that percentage to show

 

[HaplessRunner]

Many Judges are happy to talk to people about their breeding programs & to offer feedback & suggestions for improvements. Had I been the Judge in this situation I too would have been at a loss as,again, the is no accepted standard for the breed. That's the bottom line: w/o an accepted standard no Judge can meaningfully exaluate birds beyond general condition.

ETA: "really bright colours" are nice to look at but there's much more to standardized birds than that. Lots of the cross bred birds that get pictured on this site have pretty bright colours as do the members of many flocks of barnyard mutts. When I was a kid I had a flock of "Banties" cross bred bantams that came in every colour imaginable. Very brightly coloured birds with no 2 alike, but I never considered showing them. This portion of your comment suggests that less colourful birds are somehow devalued-that really shows a lack of insight into what showing is all about. IMO there's nothing more beautiful than a well bred White Leghorn Male or Black Sumatra female in perfect show condition.
Also, your bird wasn't doing anything proudly, pride reflects a human emotion not available to chickens.

I'm sure many of you will be pleased to know that this will be my last word on Legbars.

Well, I must say that I had a very different experience at the Virginia Poultry Breeders Association show on November 23, 2013 in Ruther Glen, Virginia.

I provided the show organizer a copy of the draft SOP for my cream legbars. I met the judges at the show and asked them to review the draft SOP for which I received several recommendations. I also asked for some feed back on my cream legbars which I also received.

I was fortunate in that the judge at this show that reviewed the AOSB class and NSB group was Paul Gilroy. As noted by many of the show participants, Paul has a solid reputation as a leghorn judge. Given the background as a leghorn judge, I believe Paul was probably better positioned to have a more knowledgeable position and view of the cream legbars. Since there are brown leghorns in the genetic history of the cream legbar, the type for cream legbars and leghorns are somewhat similar.

As a former national level masters track and competitor in sprints, jumps, and multi-events (pentathlons and decathlons), if few people in your age group show up, you are still the best on race day. Showing up and competing is in itself its own reward. While I can agree with NYREDS that winning BB or RB in a breed that no one else shows would not seem to have much value, I do appreciate the results of showing chickens in a highly competitive breed with many competitors. I, too, had this experience when I showed my LF ameraucanas. Not including the wheaten variety in which I had the only two birds in the show, I had overall BB with a black ameraucana cockerel, RV black ameraucana pullet and a BV blue wheaten ameraucana cockerel. Yes, winning in a competitive class can be very satisfying but so can showing something new.

I think the main point I am trying to get to here is that I was fortunate that the judge in the Virginia Poultry Breeders Association show was somewhat familiar with the type of breed in which the cream legbar is related, he took the time to digest the draft standard, and he was open to questions and offered recommendations. After reading the above show results from Texas and the commentary that has ensued, I cannot help but feel that the cream legbar was a breed well outside the realm with which this particular judge was familiar. When the judge was questioned, it appears that he may have become defensive. These are normal human reactions when someone is outside their area of comfort and knowledge. While these may be normal human reactions and I would like give this judge the benefit of the doubt, I believe that we have to expect better from those who carry judge credentials.

For your information, here is a link to an article that I wrote based on my Virginia Poultry Breeders Association show last fall: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e00ro7e9sbo8pcq/CLC Newsletter 2.1.pdf
The article is the second one in the Cream Legbar Club Newsletter.

By the way, this should not be your last word on legbars. The door is open to all who wish to help. The Cream Legbar Club and breed is a big tent with many diverse opinions (as many here will attest!!).

 

[blackbirds13]

Many Judges are happy to talk to people about their breeding programs & to offer feedback & suggestions for improvements. Had I been the Judge in this situation I too would have been at a loss as,again, the is no accepted standard for the breed. That's the bottom line: w/o an accepted standard no Judge can meaningfully exaluate birds beyond general condition.

ETA: "really bright colours" are nice to look at but there's much more to standardized birds than that. Lots of the cross bred birds that get pictured on this site have pretty bright colours as do the members of many flocks of barnyard mutts. When I was a kid I had a flock of "Banties" cross bred bantams that came in every colour imaginable. Very brightly coloured birds with no 2 alike, but I never considered showing them. This portion of your comment suggests that less colourful birds are somehow devalued-that really shows a lack of insight into what showing is all about. IMO there's nothing more beautiful than a well bred White Leghorn Male or Black Sumatra female in perfect show condition.
Also, your bird wasn't doing anything proudly, pride reflects a human emotion not available to chickens.

I'm sure many of you will be pleased to know that this will be my last word on Legbars.

Some of this I found befuddling to read. Given the depth and breadth of the conversations we have had on color I cannot see that anyone would say these threads have devalued a less colorful bird.... in fact I think it has been just the opposite. As for there being more to a standard than just 'bright colours' I would think that has also been clearly evident in the mindset of those posting on the Cream Legbar threads. There is much discussion on type and the other aspects of the breed beyond color, admitantly we could and should do more. I have heard lots of show where birds with no APA accepted standard have been judged on type according to a working draft standard and beyond just their "general condition". And lastly, I am not sure who is ever pleased when anyone with experience and know-how chooses to make anything their 'last word' especially when the last word is such a negative statement on the process some have endeavored on.

just felt the need to respond but that's my last word on that as I readily admit I know very little about a lot of poultry stuff.

On a personal word. I am hoping to start incubating in a couple weeks but still need to go through the birds to see what pairings I'd like to try. Still need to work out the whole male barring issue. That last young rooster is looking better but hoping he'll size up a bit as he grows.