Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Standardized? No. But every line, I think, has carried a white recessive gene that shows up if two of your breeders have it. A couple of people have been working on the whites. They're pretty and auto sexing.

That is so interesting, because I think a lot haven't had any white one - nor what eggs. Although I have only had about 30-40 hatches - none have been white. Since I focus on one breeding pair - although another hen and another rooster are in the mix...I would lay odds that recessive white isn't in my Cream Legbars genetics.

The white Cream Legbars are called White Sports. There is a thread on BYC about them.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/827877/white-sport-cream-legbars

When they first popped up - it was thought that it was a white sport -- sport in genetics being a spontaneous mutation of the genetics if my understanding is correct. Subsequently, it has been discovered that since the Applegarth days there has been a lot of 'outcrossing' to improve the breed...and these white ones are recessive genes that are appearing..

Here is a quote:
A naturally occurring genetic mutation, sometimes known as a sport or a break, causes a sudden change in the appearance of a plant.
Here is the article:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=259

Although they are referencing plants -- the genetic fabrication is the same to create a sport.

In our case....the genes probably didn't mutate---but rather two recessives were passed from heterozygous parents. So eventhough they were tagged 'sports' - actually they are most likely recessive whites. BYC member blackbirds13 has successfully bred them, so it would be possible to raise white Cream Legbars.... People who have had them say that their eggs are blue when the come into lay.

 

[har]

Standardized? No. But every line, I think, has carried a white recessive gene that shows up if two of your breeders have it. A couple of people have been working on the whites. They're pretty and auto sexing.

Thank you for that. Just checked the incubator and have 11 chicks including the white one. That is from 12 shipped eggs. Got lucky this time.

Scott

 

[chicken pickin]

That is so interesting, because I think a lot haven't had any white one - nor what eggs. Although I have only had about 30-40 hatches - none have been white. Since I focus on one breeding pair - although another hen and another rooster are in the mix...I would lay odds that recessive white isn't in my Cream Legbars genetics.
When they first popped up - it was thought that it was a white sport -- sport in genetics being a spontaneous mutation of the genetics if my understanding is correct. Subsequently, it has been discovered that since the Applegarth days there has been a lot of 'outcrossing' to improve the breed...and these white ones are recessive genes that are appearing..

Here is a quote:
A naturally occurring genetic mutation, sometimes known as a sport or a break, causes a sudden change in the appearance of a plant.
Here is the article:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=259

Although they are referencing plants -- the genetic fabrication is the same to create a sport.

In our case....the genes probably didn't mutate---but rather two recessives were passed from heterozygous parents. So eventhough they were tagged 'sports' - actually they are most likely recessive whites. BYC member blackbirds13 has successfully bred them, so it would be possible to raise white Cream Legbars.... People who have had them say that their eggs are blue when the come into lay.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't realize that a White Sport was actually a term for something in genetics. I had thought it was what these white CLs were actually named. I guess I should read through that white sport CL thread and try to learn more about them.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Thank you for that. Just checked the incubator and have 11 chicks including the white one. That is from 12 shipped eggs. Got lucky this time.

Scott

Wow that is fantastic luck for shipped eggs! If you don't mind me asking how far were the eggs shipped?

 

[har]

Wow that is fantastic luck for shipped eggs!  If you don't mind me asking how far were the eggs shipped?

They came from Indiana.

 

[ChicKat]

In 1957, Cambridge U discontinued their poultry breeding program. The flock(s?) of CLs went into private hands. Among them was David Applegarth. He has created a commercial egglayer called the Skyline that produces blue eggs for the commercial market in the UK, as I understand it. Here is a link to an article:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/15/01/2009/113812/poultry-breeder-to-produce-applegarth-skyline-layer.htm

One of the things that is fascinating about CL is that could be the beginning of the period of disarray that Steen and Laingcroft refer to. Naturally going from a monitored University program into private hands with an uncertain future, -- anything can happen.....

I think GaryDean26 did get some added information from Mr. Applegarth - and as I interpret it, the genetics by 1957 were rather thin. At that point there were definitely outcrosses probably just to maintain survival of the Cream Legbars. A question for people with genetic expertise may be just how much of the original Punett genetics survive to this day. Two folks, one in the UK and one here in the USA have advised me that we should look at the SOP. As Tru pointed out, and as a number of us have stated, the SOP would incorporate a range of chickens from the artist rendered images by Diane Jacky to a number of other CLs that are walking around now.....

http://www.zazzle.com/cream_legbar_chickens_dinner_plate-115460731560556806

Whoa!
Doing some research and this one popped up on the internet from my googling.

Couldn't edit one this old, but it does contain some errors for those of you who may have read or are reading the whole thread and are new to Cream Legars (some threads just get too L-O-N-G.)

The Cream Legbars in private hands did not go to David Applegarth from Cambridge but rather to a gentleman from who David Applegarth obtained two Cream Legbars in 1987. The person was a student at Cambridge during the time of Punnett and Pease, as I understand it. His name was John Croome and he kept the Cream Legbar breed for the years spanning 1957 until his death in 1988.

So the above statement is wrong - it was 1987 before Mr. Applegarth was dealing with reproduction difficulty with Cream Legbars. It could easily be that after those 30-years the breed was very in-bred.

BTW - I will put in a plug here...for a working group or 'taskforce' of people who would like to evaluate the options of what range of cream color the Cream Legbar Club will eventually post on the website for guidance for especially those who are new to the breed, or for anyone who has some confusion about the coloration issue....Most likely the persons would have enough interest in the Cream Legbar breed and commitment to the breed to be in the CL Club. Should you have any interest in the project/process, then please send me a PM and an email where you can be contacted. Thanks!

Also, I have to add on my own personal note---since I have another breed that I have heard has a great deal of inbreeding because they were so rare at one point...most of the Cream Legbars I hatch jump right out of the shell and are really healthy chicks! Everyone that has pipped has hatched.

 

[blackbirds13]

BTW - I will put in a plug here...for a working group or 'taskforce' of people who would like to evaluate the options of what range of cream color the Cream Legbar Club will eventually post on the website for guidance for especially those who are new to the breed, or for anyone who has some confusion about the coloration issue....Most likely the persons would have enough interest in the Cream Legbar breed and commitment to the breed to be in the CL Club. Should you have any interest in the project/process, then please send me a PM and an email where you can be contacted. Thanks!

Also, I have to add on my own personal note---since I have another breed that I have heard has a great deal of inbreeding because they were so rare at one point...most of the Cream Legbars I hatch jump right out of the shell and are really healthy chicks! Everyone that has pipped has hatched.

Just a note. Pipping and not hatching may have little to nothing to do with the health of the chick. Many times it has to do with humidity or other lockdown issues. I have Hovabators and buy a new one each year as they seem to get worse as they get older but I'm not forking out the bucks for the R-Com and no way my husband's gonna stick around if I get a cabinet unless these the birds start laying golden eggs. I have eggs that pip and even zip but get sticky or dry and since I dont' help they unfortunately die in there. I have very few chicks that die when hatched but I do have some every once in a while and I have hatched one chick that I had to cull due to a beak issue but my adults rarely ever just keep over. Usually it's a predator or an injury that gets them. I have A, B, C line chickens so not worried too much about inbreeding but if folks are buying eggs from a single flock and then breeding those together I think it could be an issue at some point.


In regards to cream coloration. There is a range but it is small. If the genes don't match they will not breed true. Any bird that is not double cream will breed gold, single cream and maybe double cream if mated single to single cream gene. It would seem to me that the issue of color would hopefully be done with birds that have been bred for more than 1 generation and that breed true for the most part since that is going to be part of the APA requirement. I think maybe getting an idea of the melanizers or enhancers in the breed would also be a good road to hoe going forward. I'm personally not interested as I have other things I've moved on to but cream color is an issue and I have questions on that still but if this is another avenue to add more gold colored birds to the 'acceptable' range of color we will not be doing the breed any good in the long run. There are still so many folks out there who eagerly post there photos here and on other sites just to face the disappointment of realizing they do not have a 'cream' legbar. Perpetuating a false phenotype is just not something I want to get into so I wish everyone luck with this endeavor and look forward to seeing what the results are.

 

[nicalandia]

Just a note. Pipping and not hatching may have little to nothing to do with the health of the chick. Many times it has to do with humidity or other lockdown issues. I have Hovabators and buy a new one each year as they seem to get worse as they get older but I'm not forking out the bucks for the R-Com and no way my husband's gonna stick around if I get a cabinet unless these the birds start laying golden eggs.

many years ago I learned that hens make the best incuvators, but I needed only to hatch 10 eggs at a time,

 

[Localheronow]

Just a note. Pipping and not hatching may have little to nothing to do with the health of the chick. Many times it has to do with humidity or other lockdown issues. I have Hovabators and buy a new one each year as they seem to get worse as they get older but I'm not forking out the bucks for the R-Com and no way my husband's gonna stick around if I get a cabinet unless these the birds start laying golden eggs. I have eggs that pip and even zip but get sticky or dry and since I dont' help they unfortunately die in there. I have very few chicks that die when hatched but I do have some every once in a while and I have hatched one chick that I had to cull due to a beak issue but my adults rarely ever just keep over. Usually it's a predator or an injury that gets them. I have A, B, C line chickens so not worried too much about inbreeding but if folks are buying eggs from a single flock and then breeding those together I think it could be an issue at some point.


In regards to cream coloration. There is a range but it is small. If the genes don't match they will not breed true. Any bird that is not double cream will breed gold, single cream and maybe double cream if mated single to single cream gene. It would seem to me that the issue of color would hopefully be done with birds that have been bred for more than 1 generation and that breed true for the most part since that is going to be part of the APA requirement. I think maybe getting an idea of the melanizers or enhancers in the breed would also be a good road to hoe going forward. I'm personally not interested as I have other things I've moved on to but cream color is an issue and I have questions on that still but if this is another avenue to add more gold colored birds to the 'acceptable' range of color we will not be doing the breed any good in the long run. There are still so many folks out there who eagerly post there photos here and on other sites just to face the disappointment of realizing they do not have a 'cream' legbar. Perpetuating a false phenotype is just not something I want to get into so I wish everyone luck with this endeavor and look forward to seeing what the results are.

I agree 100% CREAM is CREAM that is the name of the bird right. maybe this is a rush to get this birds accepted to the APA to include the gold type. I think to keep the breed pure lets stick with the CREAM color bird. THE CREASED CREAM LEG BAR .That is part of the name not gold are any other color.

 

[nicalandia]

I agree 100% CREAM is CREAM that is the name of the bird right. maybe this is a rush to get this birds accepted to the APA to include the gold type. I think to keep the breed pure lets stick with the CREAM color bird. THE CREASED CREAM LEG BAR .That is part of the name not gold are any other color.

not quite.. red enhancers also play an effect here, cream is jut the phenotype, while you can have a cream phonotype without actually having cream... and you can have a genotypically cream bird that will not look like it due to red enhancers or other modifiers