Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[Bantambird]

It's strange, I know. Have had a few cream females, or single cream gene, but the first imported line had a lot of gold and not as much cream in it. I don't have smaller breeder pens so targeted breeding is a little tougher but I am super selective about the males especially and the cull females get sold as layers to the community allowing me to breed quite a few. There have been a few lighter colored males, but this is the first one that looks like everyone else's idea of "cream" from my group. I've had them get like yellow butter, but not the pale colored cream color.

 

[Bantambird]

Here are a typical pair of cockerels in my bachelor pen. Most of them are this color. Most focus has really been on conformation and health over color, but I do want good color too.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

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Here are a typical pair of cockerels in my bachelor pen. Most of them are this color. Most focus has really been on conformation and health over color, but I do want good color too.

These are beautiful. Where are you located? I'd be pleased as punch to produce this. What do the primary flight feathers look like?

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

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Here's a cockerel I caught up about 5-6 months old. He's got a pretty decent comb/crest, nice lobes, Here's the primaries. I'm just outside of Billings, MT.

To me this looks like a cream bird with high autosomal red showing up.
For obvious reasons, the preference in CREAM legbars is for birds that look like they are actually silver duckwing based rather than gold duckwing with cream modifiers.

The secondary feathers and wing triangle on this bird look pretty obviously cream to me. I'd also say those bright brassy saddle feathers are obviously Ig diluted compared to what you'd see on the same bird with the gene.

These types exist in a no man's land in the Legbar breed though, apparently. I think a lot of highly colored birds like this are probably cream but they're so easily mistaken for Golden Crele that they wind up sort of... inbetween.

I want Golden Crele birds that look like this:

Your cockerel, by comparison, is much more like a barred version of this cream Dutch Bantam:

However, if we're going to have golden crele and cream, it makes sense to breed for distinctively different appearances and therefore cream birds with very little autosomal red or diluted gold that more resemble a Silver Crele are the reasonable solution I guess.

There is an article by Jean Robocker on The Coop site called "Understanding the Cream Light Brown Dutch Bantam" that I found very enlightening for understanding the range of colors we see in Cream Legbars. (I don't think I can post a link here, but you should be able to find it by Googling that information.)

Of variations within the Cream Light Brown variety (which is the Ig gene on a light brown/gold duckwing bird) she says:

"Because the addition of the gene for Cream color is a simple recessive, the Light Brown carriers of the gene will produce some Cream Light Brown offspring. But these birds may have red or dark orange heads instead of the beautiful blond heads of the correctly colored birds. The best hackle color will be Creamy-yellow from head to tip of hackle, but with the same black striping that the Light Brown and Blue Light Brown birds show. Some individuals will have "dead-straw" colored or very pale cream hackle, not really correct."​

And truly, if you look at the few other breeds that recognize true CREAM varieties, such as the Brabanter and the Dutch Bantam, you do see a huge range in possible color.

Basically, I'm saying I think most birds we call "Golden Crele" in this breed are very possibly just poorly colored creams, or more brightly colored creams than what we're conditioned to strive for (which is basically visually almost indistinguishable from a silver crele with some autosomal red AKA "chestnut" leakage). It's rare that I see so-called Golden Crele birds that truly show no indication of dilution at work.

 

[Bantambird]

Is not another problem with diluting certain aspects of legbar colors also cause ambiguous chick down?

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Is not another problem with diluting certain aspects of legbar colors also cause ambiguous chick down?

I have no idea yet. I get silver-looking birds, more colorful looking cream birds, birds I'd call true golden crele, and even white from my flock. Chick down on makes can be dramatically different from light creamy looking chicks to mote coffee tones (but still obviously male) boys. Im hoping to tag some boys according to down color and grow them out this year to see if there's any correlation.

I personally think ambiguity is mostly from crossing unrelated lines and not breeding for autosexing for multiple generations.

 

[Bantambird]

I have no idea yet. I get silver-looking birds, more colorful looking cream birds, birds I'd call true golden crele, and even white from my flock. Chick down on makes can be dramatically different from light creamy looking chicks to mote coffee tones (but still obviously male) boys. Im hoping to tag some boys according to down color and grow them out this year to see if there's any correlation.

I personally think ambiguity is mostly from crossing unrelated lines and not breeding for autosexing for multiple generations.

Most of the complaints about ambiguity I've seen have been related to the Ree's line or people new to the breed. I haven't seen as much with the AB line or the C line groups, but time is probably muddling many of these lines together as new people come in with different parent birds to promote diversity and stave off inbreeding. My problem with bringing in possible fresh blood will be keeping out Ree's line for sure, as there have been some pointed statements about their mixing with previous ones.

 

[Strange Hatter Farms]

He needs a while to fill in yet, but I am not seeing anything major. He does have a serrated blade in the back but that's not a huge biggie. It is nice that his comb stays up and the blade is lifted from his head. It is good to aim for matching hackle and saddle feathers on cocks. He is starting to get his big boy tail. His barring, what I can see of it, looks acceptable. Nice leg color, nice white earlobes, they need a little time to grow out too. I like his long back. I like your pullet too. She has a cute crest that is not too big and not too small. Her shape is nice for her age, she should also fill out well. Her wattles are free of folds, which is super. Your cockerel has some folds/wrinkling on his wattles, not ideal but within acceptable. Your pullet, if her wattles stay like they are, will help you in the future to sort that out. Her comb seems to lean over a bit but I cant really tell from the angle.

I thought I replied but I guess bad connection. Sorry about that. I really appreciate your expertise. I’m really glad I have a decent start to my breeding program. I bought some eggs from a farm during the summer thinking they would lay blue eggs, because I wanted some blue, but my one and only hen laid her first egg and it looks to be green. I’ll have to look for blue in the spring I suppose.

 

[Strange Hatter Farms]

that egg is within acceptable color. Photography of the legbar eggs is difficult due to subtle light causing changes to shading. The original birds from England often has a slight minty green cast over the blue eggs. Don't let her go yet, you can work with this.

Yeah, its hard to get the true color in the picture. Even in my hand I struggled to figure out if it was green or considered blue. How can I fix it?

 

[Bantambird]

Yeah, its hard to get the true color in the picture. Even in my hand I struggled to figure out if it was green or considered blue. How can I fix it?

did you hatch them yourself? if you did, then you saw what color eggs they came from. The color of egg that the cockerel hatches from can impact his chicks.