Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Nicalandia, I thought ChicKat was saying she was starting a thread on Yahoo to build a place for documents. I quoted her back saying problem solved, ie. problem of putting documents somewhere. Then she responded me saying the above. Too crazy. The genetics is not my best area, so I've been completely delighted to have everyone's input, of course, yours included!

So sorry for the confusion....please reference post #309 -- HERE S THE QUOTE. PUT QUOTE IN BLUE.....


also:
cut and pasted from post 309, Laingcroft has said that there is parallel work going on for those who want to go to Yahoo groups and participate. Here is the quote:


Wow! I've been away for a weekend w/out internet access and this thread has just exploded!

While I catch up on the fifteen new pages of information, I'd like to add that I've just opened a yahoo group for those of us working on specific documents i.e. standard, history and club formation stuff which is getting buried here. The group is titled US Cream Legbar Club Working Group since I didn't want to use the "official" club name until we have one. I've set the group for initial membership approval and for first postings to prevent spam bots. Just reference BYC in the request to join so I know you're part of this working group. Please post drafts with date and author to the files section so everyone knows which copies have been superceded. Hopefully this will make specific docs/drafts easier to find and work with while those wishing to toss ideas and discuss in general can continue here.

There is also another group I forgot I had joined several months back called the Cream Legbar Breeders. Some folks there, who may also be here, have recently begun working on a Legbar history. They may be interested in joining this discussion as well.

 

[ChicKat]

I´m sorry that you think I´m burying your thread, I guess ignorance is bliss..!

any genetic questions just P.M me, I´m out

IMO, Laingcroft said that simply because it is getting hard to find a specific post in our 340+ posts just makes it hard to find. And I also think that Laingcroft's idea beyond finding things easily there...for the indexing factor, was that as someone adds a revision or change to something that someone posted, the new one would be distinguishable from the old post.

harriedhomemaker.....nice link. Thanks!

 

[nicalandia]

IMO, Laingcroft said that simply because it is getting hard to find a specific post in our 340+ posts just makes it hard to find. And I also think that Laingcroft's idea beyond finding things easily there...for the indexing factor, was that as someone adds a revision or change to something that someone posted, the new one would be distinguishable from the old post.

harriedhomemaker.....nice link. Thanks!

its ok, all good with me

 

[jamesbwood]

Introduction

I'm a marine biologist, octopus expert (http://thecephalopodpage.org/), and am new to chickens with a lot to learn. I'm slowly reading my way through the prior posts in this thread.

I have 1 white cockerel from madamwlf (into the incubator on June 1st 2012) and one normal colored pullet from boykin2010 (into the incubator on May 5th). These two are together and are expected to start laying eggs soon. I also have 17 eggs, into the incubator 10/11/12, from two lines, A and B, from redchicken9. I've been trying to use separate sources to avoid future inbreeding, especially siblings mating with siblings. I was planning on keeping my own pedigree but would much prefer to be part of a larger one. As we know, the original source for all of these is Greenfire farms so the gene pool is already shallow.

If we retain productivity, in time this could become an important breed for everyday American backyard chicken keepers due to the autosexing characteristics and colorful eggs. I fully support what I've read so far regarding preserving the utility of this breed. With milk goats, they also have production awards and standards. The emphasis on both show lines and production keeps things real by preventing breeding for just a pretty animal.

In addition to the standard, the club idea sounds great. It would be awesome to trade/buy/etc eggs with/from others that are also improving the breed and have some sort of documented pedigree - this is especially important to minimize further inbreeding.

I can offer my services as a photographer.

James in S. Florida

 

[blackbirds13]

I’m not understanding why we would want to completely eliminate the small definitive spot on the female.
I believe it occurs because these are barred, brown based birds. Barring is sex-linked so males get a double dose and females a single and this barring is indicated by the light patch on the chick’s head. In black down the patch can be very similar at times but in brown chicks the head spot is supposed to be minute and defined in the females but spread out over the the body of the male which is why they have that blurred effect and females look sharper.
From what I’ve read and researched the standards were written with that color difference from black to brown in mind and my vote is to maintain the head spot since it has been a long standing standard and occurs more often than not. But if folks want to cull for it they should but it is a feature of the auto-sexing nature of the breeds that make up the Cream Legbar. I can't imagine how many birds will need to be culled and for how long to eliminate the head spot and if this is an aspect of the breed we can really ever eliminate. I don’t intend to cull for it as it is easily discernable and I do not think it affects the ability to auto-sex if you cull hard for large spots on females or those with discontinuous stripping like the one in the image posted earlier of a breeding pair or males with small spots and discernible stripping or eyeliner. I worry about seperating out the production and what some are calling the show qualities. I'm not understanding why there needs to be two varieties and worry about the long term implications as was seen and is still seen with some breeds like the Black Copper Marans - dark eggs vs correct plumage and type. Are folks having production problems with their birds more so than would be expected? And if anyone can explain why there would be a need to achieve each differently that would be helpful. If we create a standard that is not met by either the "production" variety or the "show" variety would it still be a Cream Legbar?

 

[nicalandia]

I’m not understanding why we would want to completely eliminate the small definitive spot on the female.

how about, easy of sexing? nothing beats this

I believe it occurs because these are barred, brown based birds.

they are not based on brown(eb) they are based on e+(wildtype) at this stage you guys are getting dark males and females that can confuse alot of people, why would you breed from this birds? if you have light colored roos and wiltype looking hens, use them? it will make autosexing much easier..


just search for pics of "sexing legbar chicks"

here I did it for you
http://www.google.com.ni/#hl=es-419...acb7c2d152feb0&bpcl=35277026&biw=1280&bih=637

First Video




Also from that search link one comes up with your GFF breeding lines...

Dark Female Looking Male Chick


Female(without a headspot by the way)



and to makes things even more confusing...

now Females with a well marked headspot?



yeah just breed from the light males and none headspot females...

 

[blackbirds13]

how about, easy of sexing? nothing beats this


they are not based on brown(eb) they are based on e+(wildtype) at this stage you guys are getting dark males and females that can confuse alot of people, why would you breed from this birds? if you have light colored roos and wiltype looking hens, use them? it will make autosexing much easier..


just search for pics of "sexing legbar chicks"

here I did it for you
http://www.google.com.ni/#hl=es-419...acb7c2d152feb0&bpcl=35277026&biw=1280&bih=637

First Video




Also from that search link one comes up with your GFF breeding lines...

Dark Female Looking Male Chick


Female(without a headspot by the way)



and to makes things even more confusing...

now Females with a well marked headspot?



yeah just breed from the light males and none headspot females...

I understand what you are saying but it does not exactly go with what some of the research I've been doing on Cream Legbars is stating. I'm not going to argue or belabor this point, or any other, but I think I may need to go in a different direction than you are advising in order to get to the flock I am attempting to achieve, which does comport more to the UK standard.
So I think I will breed from my light males (I don't have any dark one) and both my none and defined headspot females per the UK SOP.

 

[nicalandia]

how about, easy of sexing? nothing beats this


they are not based on brown(eb) they are based on e+(wildtype) at this stage you guys are getting dark males and females that can confuse alot of people, why would you breed from this birds? if you have light colored roos and wiltype looking hens, use them? it will make autosexing much easier..


just search for pics of "sexing legbar chicks"

here I did it for you
http://www.google.com.ni/#hl=es-419...acb7c2d152feb0&bpcl=35277026&biw=1280&bih=637

First Video




Also from that search link one comes up with your GFF breeding lines...

Dark Female Looking Male Chick


Female(without a headspot by the way)



and to makes things even more confusing...

now Females with a well marked headspot?



yeah just breed from the light males and none headspot females...

sorry I forgot to provide the source of the Confusing chicks(GFF) http://greenfirefarms.com/store/category/chickens/cream-legbar/ scroll all the way down

 

[nicalandia]

I will breed from my light males (I don't have any dark one)

concider your self lucky... some of your colleages are not so lucky.

 

[fowlman01]

I’m not understanding why we would want to completely eliminate the small definitive spot on the female.
I believe it occurs because these are barred, brown based birds. Barring is sex-linked so males get a double dose and females a single and this barring is indicated by the light patch on the chick’s head. In black down the patch can be very similar at times but in brown chicks the head spot is supposed to be minute and defined in the females but spread out over the the body of the male which is why they have that blurred effect and females look sharper.
From what I’ve read and researched the standards were written with that color difference from black to brown in mind and my vote is to maintain the head spot since it has been a long standing standard and occurs more often than not. But if folks want to cull for it they should but it is a feature of the auto-sexing nature of the breeds that make up the Cream Legbar. I can't imagine how many birds will need to be culled and for how long to eliminate the head spot and if this is an aspect of the breed we can really ever eliminate. I don’t intend to cull for it as it is easily discernable and I do not think it affects the ability to auto-sex if you cull hard for large spots on females or those with discontinuous stripping like the one in the image posted earlier of a breeding pair or males with small spots and discernible stripping or eyeliner. I worry about seperating out the production and what some are calling the show qualities. I'm not understanding why there needs to be two varieties and worry about the long term implications as was seen and is still seen with some breeds like the Black Copper Marans - dark eggs vs correct plumage and type. Are folks having production problems with their birds more so than would be expected? And if anyone can explain why there would be a need to achieve each differently that would be helpful. If we create a standard that is not met by either the "production" variety or the "show" variety would it still be a Cream Legbar?

There should be only one form. One that fills both needs. Production and show. A person can get better egg production if they breed for a hybrid that is an excellent egg layer, but you can already buy autosexing birds that do that. Hatcheries have them. My understanding is that you folks want to keep the production qualities that the CL's already have, and also keep the look of the birds relatively consistent. I don't see a problem keeping birds that you can show that will also be great egg layers.

The Marans is an excellent example of how a breed can go downhill if only one quality is being bred for....and let me add...by people that have no idea what they were doing. Finally there are BC Marans that look and perform as they should, but there is still a lot of work to be done and still a lot of junk to be bred out. As an example the Pene combs. The advantage you have is that there are so few of these that the folks who like "projects" haven't gotten them and hybridized them yet. Trust me...someone will want a naked necked, frizzled, purple egg laying CL before long.

Walt