Crop Feeding Sick Hen, Losing Wt, Slow Crop, Liquid from Beak, Wiggling Neck

[casportpony]

I would much rather inject than "hope for the best" (ie: that I don't end up wearing part of it) with oral. Subcutaneous? Or do you need to find a vein?

The injectable can be given in the muscle or SC, but I guess if I were going to inject the oral I would probably do sc.

 

[Ravynscroft]

So Kathy, you can inject the same oral enrofloxacin? Same dosage?

I would much rather inject than "hope for the best" (ie: that I don't end up wearing part of it) with oral. Subcutaneous? Or do you need to find a vein?

I *think* both Kathy and I get the injectable type and that one can be given either way... if yours is strictly oral type, I wouldn't feel comfortable about injecting it, jmo...

 

[micstrachan]

You are doing a wonderful job and are receiving great advice. I have nothing to add except for words of support and encouragement. Keep up the good work and I will be thinking of you and Cha Cha! (SUPER cute name, by the way!)

 

[PostageStampRanch]

You are doing a wonderful job and are receiving great advice. I have nothing to add except for words of support and encouragement. Keep up the good work and I will be thinking of Yu and Cha Cha! (SUPER cute name, by the way!)

Thank you, I'm feeling like there's at least something else I can do now. I appreciate your support!

Cha Cha was named by our daughter.

 

[PostageStampRanch]

Cha Cha UPDATE

I started Cha Cha on Fish Mox (Amoxicillin), 250mg capsule 2x/day, seven days ago. I’m not sure it’s doing anything. I plan to switch to Baytril now that it’s here and only if I have enough information to do it safely (Please see questions below).

Most of the time she’s been standing, walking, pecking the mirror frame, wiping her beak on the newspapers (floor), inquisitive, and alert. At times her tail has been up.

She’s continued with the crop feeding for food and liquids. Her crop is still slow (squishy, but not sour) and never completely empties. On 4/14 and 4/15 I added a small amount of applesauce to the tube feeds in the hope of her emptying her crop faster. If it’s infection that is slowing the crop, my goal is to clear that up so she can increase her water/food intake. Today I’m focused on hydration with Pedialyte to prepare for the Baytril.

On 4/12, Cha Cha ate 7 mealworms on her own. 4/14 she ate 3-4 mealworms on her own, dribbled a small amount of liquid out of her beak, then thrashed a couple mealworms without eating them. On 4/15 she was pecking at the newspaper lining. Two mealworms were offered. She thrashed them, eating one. On 4/16 damp flock raiser crumbles that were available showed at least pecked, possibly a small amount eaten (photo). On the same day I switched to unflavored Pedialyte and Poly-Vi-Sol vitamins (without iron) from previously adding Durvet Vitamins & Electrolytes to water. Yesterday she briefly pecked at her crumbles.

She still, at times, loses liquid (~1/2-1 tsp at a time) from her beak. The last time I witnessed the “S” wiggle of her neck (looks involuntary, as if to clear her crop) was 2 days ago and 4 days before that.

Her poops are similar to the previous pictures. Some looked like the photo in post #14, some were all liquid, some had more green volume like the one in post #17, but with less white and not mucous-looking. On 4/15 there was one SOLID, FORMED green/white poop with evidence of liquid. (photo) This was the most normal looking dropping since this started. If she was able to produce this, could it be more likely an infection rather than cancer growing and crowding her digestive tract?

Her weight has gone up and down by ounces. I weigh her at the same time daily. Currently, she’s 3 ½ ounces less than she was 12 days ago.

I have a few questions:

1) I now have 10% Enroxil/Baytril injectable. I plan to give it orally. From what I read here a common dose is 10mg/kg twice a day for five days. If you were dosing your bird with Baytril, would you dose her at this amount?

2) Since Baytril is powerful and the dose needs to be precise, do I need to weigh her on a metric scale? (I don’t own one.) She weighs 3 lbs., 6.5 oz. as of today.

3) I’m confused by the 10mg/kg for a liquid medication. How is it converted to ml? (I REALLY don’t want to make an error.)

4) I’ve read that Baytril can leave the bird susceptible to a fungal infection. Since the metronidazole I’ve found online is prescription only, would something like Monistat (available at a local store) be an acceptable substitute? If so, what strength and dose? I’d like to be prepared.

 

[PostageStampRanch]

This pic was taken on 4/15. If she was able to produce this, could it be more likely an infection rather than cancer growing and crowding her digestive tract?

 

[PostageStampRanch]

This shot was taken on 4/16. It looks pecked. Hard to tell if she ate any of it.

 

[PostageStampRanch]

I'm stuck on the Baytril dosing and could really use some guidance. Any help is very much appreciated!

 

[PostageStampRanch]

Cha Cha UPDATE

4) I’ve read that Baytril can leave the bird susceptible to a fungal infection. Since the metronidazole I’ve found online is prescription only, would something like Monistat (available at a local store) be an acceptable substitute? If so, what strength and dose? I’d like to be prepared.

I'm not able to edit my previous comment, but I need to correct the above. Metronidazole and Monistat treat two different problems. Metronidazole is an antibiotic and Monistat is an antifungal.

I'm looking for an antifungal treatment. I'm hoping she won't need it, but she may if the antibiotics make her susceptible to a fungal infection.

Her crop is squishy. Can someone clarify if there is a difference between a squishy crop and a doughy crop? The threads I've read say a doughy crop is pliable and almost holds its shape. Cha Cha's crop is slow, so it feels like a squishy mass in my hand. I'm not sure if I could describe it as holding its shape. Could it be a doughy crop/yeast infection from being on amoxicillin for a week?

I feel like as soon as I think I've figured something out, another issue presents itself.

 

[jacksonnotary]

I can’t offer any help either but I have a few hens just like it. Seems to me that one hen started showing symptoms and a few days later the next one started.
I didn’t notice at first but one night i did the headcount before bedtime and saw 2 of my younger hens on the wrong side of the coop hanging out with the older and weaker chicken.
It was then when I paid more attention. I added more apple cider vinegar and more herbs to their drinking water. They free range all day and get chicken feed and fresh corn and watermelon for treats. Oh, and freeze dried meal worms. Once a week I offer a big bowl of old bread with olive oil, garlic, turmeric, pepper, oregano for them. They eat on it for two days and love it.
It’s been a couple of weeks and I checked them for any open wounds, parasites but came up empty handed.
I do massage their crop and they do have fluids leaking from beak when I turn them on their backs. Nothing foul smelling. Their poop rather like fluids with some yellow or white streaks.
All of the hens showing symptoms barely have any weight left on them. I do see them eat and drink. And they do act normal in my opinion.
I don’t have a vet to look at them. So I follow my gut and hope I don’t make too many mistakes. I also pray a lot for help.
So, I follow your lead and hope between all the members reading this, we will find a way through this.
Please stay in touch.

Hi Everyone,
I've been a long time lurker on this website due to the awesome information and helpfulness of the community. Unfortunately, my first post is an emergency. I've searched many pages and can't nail this down. I don't want time to run out on my sweet hen. Please pardon the length. I'm trying to give enough information so it's recognizable. Any help is tremendously appreciated.

1) What type of bird, age and weight (does the chicken seem or feel lighter or thinner than the others?)

• Cha Cha is a California White chicken (Leghorn x California Gray)
• She is 7 years old (bought her as a pullet)
• Currently 3 lbs., 9 oz. (down 3 oz. from baseline weight several years ago as well as more recently), but she seems like her keel is more prominent now. (Her coop mate is a heavier bodied Blue Cochin x Araucana hen.)

2) What is the behavior, exactly?

• I first noticed her occasionally sitting in the yard, resting more often, when her coop mate was scratching/pecking
• Occasionally standing with her eyes closed
• Sometimes tail was down (most of the time now)
• Red comb had gained purple tips (bright red again as of 4/10/18)
• Started roosting early
• Poopy vent feathers
• Standing in corner of run
• Clear liquid (no smell) came pouring out of her beak when I picked her up to take her inside (4/2/18).
  
• Became uninterested in food or treats (Around 4/1/18)
  
• Stopped drinking on her own (I haven't witnessed it since ~4/1/18)
  
• Wiggled her neck a couple of times (to the side, somewhat like an “s”), then it stopped (outside before 4/2/18 and again today 4/11/18.)
  
• Brought her indoors to chicken hospital with flockraiser softened with water and a bowl of water with ACV (+ mother) in it. No interest.
  
• Finally took some water from an eye dropper (~4/3/18).
  
• Has also had borborygmi a few of times (early on, and more recently.)

I researched how to tube feed liquids & food (on BYC, ) and finally got up the courage and supplies to do it. (I’ve made sure to push all of the air out of the crop tube before crop feeding her, but have still heard borborygmi.)


3) How long has the bird been exhibiting symptoms?

I first noticed something was off about 2 weeks ago, but we had other things take precedence with a car in the shop after being sandwiched in a 4 car accident and an emergency health issue in the family. I brought her in 9 days ago and have been desperately trying to find a way to get her to drink/eat.

4) Are other birds exhibiting the same symptoms?

Her coop mate, Amy, has some runny poop on her vent feathers, but is active/eating/drinking/laying/normal.

5) Is there any bleeding, injury, broken bones or other sign of trauma?

No.

6) What happened, if anything that you know of, that may have caused the situation?

I’m not sure if it’s connected, but I’ve been concerned about any signs of illness since taking her to an avian vet about 7 months ago. The vet aspirated fluid from Cha Cha’s abdomen and diagnosed egg yolk peritonitis (EYP). She was drained. We were sent home with antibiotics and anti-inflammatory meds as well as $275 less in my pocket.

Side Rant: It was going to be around $650 if they had taken an x-ray that was IMO unnecessary since I was told EYP was determined by the color of the aspirate. I thought they should have aspirated the fluid, made a determination, and IF negative for EYP, ask if I wanted to have the more expensive procedures done to look for cancer or heart failure (the other two possibilities, both fatal in the short term). The cost went up from there with a hormone shot to stop egg production for 1 month that “may or may not work” that was quoted at $300, if I remember correctly. Also a hormone implant every 3 months or spaying, both even HIGHER in cost! Side Rant Off.

The good news is I learned how to pill Cha Cha. I understand that, unfortunately, there is no cure and she will most likely internally lay from now on. Her last egg was laid about 9 months ago.

A month or two ago I thought she could have ascites again, so after researching it online, I attempted to drain her with a needle syringe. Only one time I was able to draw about 7ml, then there was too much resistance on the syringe and I didn’t want to injure her, so I withdrew. After about 5 other attempts without fluid I opted to stop making the poor thing a pin cushion.

7) What has the bird been eating and drinking, if at all?

I found very helpful posts by Casportpony regarding tube feeding liquids/food. I’m using a 16Fr catheter (lubricated w/olive oil) & 60ml syringe. I read one of her suggestions on starting with Pedialyte at 15ml per pound to rehydrate the bird first.

After spending too much time reading the internet, I accidentally calculated 15ml per kg, so the first fluids may have been less than optimal. Although, since Cha Cha’s crop may not be emptying that fast, starting with less may have allowed her to keep it down. Water w/ACV (w/mother) and flock raiser softened with water was always available in her hospital cage. Not eating on her own. No drinking on own witnessed.

Previous to her halt in eating she was daily given flockraiser (since she is no longer laying) and BOSS with occasional fresh (not moldy) vegetables (cabbage, tomatoes, etc).

My Liquids/Food/Weight Notes (Please check my math):

*4/7/18 Weighed Cha Cha at 3 lbs., 10 oz. = 3.625 lbs. = 1.64 kg*

6:00pm – Tubed Cha Cha 1st time with liquids. 25ml warm water + Durvet Vitamins & Electrolytes. Room at 80° & warm fluids to reduce chance of regurgitation.

7:30pm – Crop still feels more full than not, will tube fluids in morning.

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4/8/18 8:00am – Weighed at 3 lbs, 10 oz. (no change). Tubed 2nd time with liquids. 25ml warm water + Durvet.

10:00am - Tubed liquids 3rd time. 25ml warm water + Durvet.

2:00pm - Tubed liquids 4th time. 54ml warm water + Durvet.
(Corrected amt is 3.625 lbs.x15ml=54ml)

5:15pm – Cha Cha ate 32 mealworms! Very active/alert like her old self.

5:30pm – Planned to tube 54ml warm water + Durvet. Reduced to 40ml for 5th liquid tubing due to some volume in crop.


**Estimating crop volume at 50 ml/kg. First tube feeding of food to be one-third to one-half of estimated crop volume.**

Cha Cha is 3 lbs., 10 oz. = 3.625 lbs. = 1.64 kg

1.64kg x 50ml = 82ml crop volume. If 1st feeding is at 1/3 vol. = 27 ml, ½ vol. = 41 ml**


10:00pm – 1st food tube feeding. Started with 41ml of 1 part Kaytee Exact Hand Feeding Formula + 2.5 parts warm water w/Durvet.


***Goal is no less than 5% of body weight in fluids per day. Cha Cha is 1.64 kg x 5% = .082kg = 82ml/day of water minimum. Summary for 4/8/18 total water tubed was 144ml + ~29ml water from food tubing = 173ml.***

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4/9/18 6:00am – 8 hours since last food tubing. Room temp dropped to 74°. Turned heater on. Cha Cha is sitting. Squishy crop fits in my (small) hand. 2nd tube feeding reduced to 27ml. (Made w/plain warm water due to my sleepiness.)

11:00am – Cha Cha weighs 3lbs., 12 oz. (gained 2 oz.) = 3.75lbs. = 1.7kg

Recalculated crop volume: 1.7kg x 50ml = 85ml crop volume. 1/3 vol. = 28 ml, ½ vol. = 43 ml

Noon – 6 hours since last food tube feeding. Squishy crop fits in my hand. Got Cha Cha in football position and ~6 drops of somewhat clear liquid dripped out of her beak. No smell. Postponed feeding.

4:30pm – 10 ½ hours since last tube feeding. Room at 79°. Turned on heater. Squishy crop fits in my hand, maybe slightly smaller. Tried tube feeding food (down right side of her throat), got to 14ml of 3rd feeding dispensed when some came back up. A couple of meal worm skins (from almost 24hrs ago) included with very watery baby bird food. Smelled like baby bird food. Cha Cha pecked at food bits on towel.

10:00pm –5 ½ hours since small amount of food tubed w/vomiting episode. Crop is now small. Goal was to tube 40ml warm water w/Durvet. Tubed 30ml when Cha Cha decided she was done with tubing for tonight. Boking, standing afterward, tail down.

***Summary for 4/9/18, total water tubed was 30ml + ~29ml from food tubing = 59ml - small amount vomited. Short of 85ml/day minimum water goal. Total food tubed was 41ml food w/water with a small amount lost to vomiting episode. Goal is be at 168ml-224ml food w/water per day (15ml per pound, 3-4x/day. 3.75lbs. x 15ml = 56ml per feeding).***

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4/10/18 6:00am – 8 hours since water tubed. Feeding due. One of my kids left door to room open by accident, room 74°. Turned on heater. Squishy crop is a little smaller than my hand. Boking, sitting w/tail down.

6:45am – Room 82°. Standing. Tubed 30ml of Kaytee made w/warm water + Durvet. Back in cage, she is standing, alert, w/tail briefly up.

11:00am – Cha Cha sitting in cage. She weighs 3 lbs., 12 oz. (no change)

12:30pm – Almost 6 hours since crop fed. Feeding due. Standing. Crop fits in my hand. Tubed 29ml Kaytee made w/warm water + Durvet. A little bit of walking/pecking/preening after.

6:00pm – 5 ½ hours+ since crop fed. Feeding due. Crop slightly smaller than my hand. Standing. Tubed 43ml Kaytee made w/warm water + Durvet.

10:00pm – 4 hours since last feeding. Room 84°. Crop fits my hand. Cha Cha struggled a bit before I could tube her and expelled a couple of drops of liquid from her beak. Postponed tubing (was planning for 20ml of Kaytee w/warm water + Durvet.). Just noticed that purple tips on comb are gone and it is fully bright red again.

***Summary for 4/10/18, total water tubed was ~73ml from food tubing. Short of 85ml/day minimum water goal. Total food tubed was 102ml food w/water. Goal is be at 168ml-224ml food w/water per day (15ml per pound, 3-4x/day. 3.75lbs. x 15ml = 56ml per feeding).***

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4/11/18 6:00am Door found open again. Room 72°. Turned heater on. Cha Cha is standing. Boks back to me.

6:45am - 12 hours, 45 min since last crop feed. Room 82°. Squishy crop fits in my hand, no bad breath smell. Prepared 30ml of Kaytee w/warm water + Durvet + applesauce. (Out of 2 tsp Kaytee: 1 tsp applesauce: 1.5 oz water.) In football position, Cha Cha expelled ~1/2 tsp of liquid and what looks like a thin, pale sunflower seed (photo taken). She has not been fed anything like this recently. If it is a sunflower seed, it’s from at least 9 days ago, but she wasn’t showing interest in food then. Postponed tube feeding.


11:00am Cha Cha weighs 3 lbs., 9 oz. (lost 3 oz.). Crop is slightly smaller in my hand. A couple drops of liquid dripped from her beak when I picked her up.

Noon: Feeding due. She's resistant to me massaging her crop.Postponed tube feed due to concern over liquid dripping out if she leans too far forward.

12:45pm – Sitting. Her neck is making an “S” wiggle motion, as if to dislodge something in her crop.

She is not getting enough to eat, even with tubing.


8) How does the poop look? Normal? Bloody? Runny? etc.

Poop became watery, with green bits, some white. (Have a few pics if needed.) Really stunk about a week ago. Tolerable now…maybe I’m getting used to it, but it doesn’t seem as strong an odor. Pooping regularly. Became just watery on 4/10. Morning of 4/11 one poop was watery with green/white plus two 1/2” brown parts. Tinge of yellow & a little mucousy with the watery green/white poop in afternoon of 4/11. (Also have pics.)

9) What has been the treatment you have administered so far?

Trying to get her hydrated and able to move on to food as above. Could use some guidance.

10) What is your intent as far as treatment? For example, do you want to treat completely yourself, or do you need help in stabilizing the bird until you can get to a vet?

If I can treat her myself, I’ll try. We really can’t afford the vet bills.

11) If you have a picture of the wound or condition, please post it. It may help.

I'll attempt this next.

12) Describe the housing/bedding in use.

Outside is a coop with a sand run. Hens have free reign in our postage-stamp sized (fenced) backyard during the day when we are home. No hay or grass is present.

Inside I’ve moved her into the chicken hospital in the bathroom so it can be heated to 80°. She’s on newspaper that can easily be replaced when soiled.