CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[WallTenters]

Nice looking bird and he is still "Cuckoo" just a better Cuckoo patter than most.
When I click on the picture and enlarge it I can still see the fuzzy "V" barring common to the Cuckoo pattern in a Dominique and faster feathering Barred Breeds.
He may have other genes in play giving the short tail and closer barring pattern in the Hackles and Saddle feathers but that gene doesn't seam to affect the barring in the wing Bay and Bar area.

Chris

I suppose we must be disagreeing on what a good cuckoo is. I hate the male I posted above's straightness and evenness of barring in the saddle area. I do agree I think his tail barring is rather nice though would like to see better alteration of bars and more v shape but I like that he has some clarity and distinction of bars. I do not believe the two go hand in hand (straighter even bars in the saddle area and good clean barring) as we see many Dominique males across the country with exceptional barring and are free from both faults.

Also the male leghorn you posted above is also far too even in the bars - for one his females would be very dark, for two the male's light bar should be almost twice as wide as his dark bars. Even though he has the v shape he is still not correctly marked. To have these even bars is something I would never intentionally select for.

Now as far as having good clean distinction of bars, yes I think clarity of color is very important in the cuckoo birds but I would much rather have a bird that was too smutty than one with these even straight bars as the smutty ones are much easier to clean up with better breeding the straightness is a plague.

The male above that you liked is bye bye too many DQ chicks and someone made me an offer on him in a job he will not be siring any more chicks... sorry for Melody's sake I won't say where he went ...

Such a beautiful breed and a difficult one to get right but they sure are nice when they're good! We need some bantam Dom breeders to teach us all how it's done I guess!

 

[Chris09]

I suppose we must be disagreeing on what a good cuckoo is. I hate the male I posted above's straightness and evenness of barring in the saddle area. I do agree I think his tail barring is rather nice though would like to see better alteration of bars and more v shape but I like that he has some clarity and distinction of bars. I do not believe the two go hand in hand (straighter even bars in the saddle area and good clean barring) as we see many Dominique males across the country with exceptional barring and are free from both faults.

Also the male leghorn you posted above is also far too even in the bars - for one his females would be very dark, for two the male's light bar should be almost twice as wide as his dark bars. Even though he has the v shape he is still not correctly marked. To have these even bars is something I would never intentionally select for.

Now as far as having good clean distinction of bars, yes I think clarity of color is very important in the cuckoo birds but I would much rather have a bird that was too smutty than one with these even straight bars as the smutty ones are much easier to clean up with better breeding the straightness is a plague.

The male above that you liked is bye bye too many DQ chicks and someone made me an offer on him in a job he will not be siring any more chicks... sorry for Melody's sake I won't say where he went ...

Such a beautiful breed and a difficult one to get right but they sure are nice when they're good! We need some bantam Dom breeders to teach us all how it's done I guess!

I assume by the quote below that your single breeding your birds and not double breeding them?

Quote:
Now if for some reason you don't believe what I posted on the Barring Gene or the Slow Feathering Gene your more than welcome to research it, there is tons of good information on the net on the subject.


Chris

 

[WallTenters]

It is not a question of single breeding or double breeding - I feel in my opinion (not saying this is what that breeder prefers, or what the judges prefer) that that male is too even in bars and much too dark, if you are comparing him to the standard for Dominique coloring.

 

[1muttsfan]

I certainly appreciate the different opinions, and find it really helpful in working with birds where the standards have not yet been solidified. The Cream Legbars and Euskal Oiloa both are barred breeds, and the barring discussion in particular has made me look at my birds quite differently. Of course there are bound to be differences in what makes an ideal bird. Maybe some judge-types could chime in?

 

[Chris09]

It is not a question of single breeding or double breeding - I feel in my opinion (not saying this is what that breeder prefers, or what the judges prefer) that that male is too even in bars and much too dark, if you are comparing him to the standard for Dominique coloring.

The reason I brought up the type of breeding is because of this statement, " for one his females would be very dark''.
In double breeding you have a male line and a female line.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now if I remember correctly the SOP state that the barring on a Dominique should stop short of positive Black and positive White which that Leghorn color does so to say that he is to dark would only be your opinion as you stated.[/FONT]
The SOP for the Dominique also states nothing about the White barring having to be wider than the Black or that the Male should be lighter than the Female.

(* Note - The standard for the the Dominique does state the the color of the Male may be one (1) or two (2) shades lighter than the Female.)


Chris

 

[buffalogal]

The reason I brought up the type of breeding is because of this statement, " for one his females would be very dark''.
In double breeding you have a male line and a female line.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now if I remember correctly the SOP state that the barring on a Dominique should stop short of positive Black and positive White which that Leghorn color does so to say that he is to dark would only be your opinion as you stated.[/FONT]
The SOP for the Dominique also states nothing about the White barring having to be wider than the Black or that the Male should be lighter than the Female.

(* Note - The standard for the the Dominique does state the the color of the Male may be one (1) or two (2) shades lighter than the Female.)


Chris

What she means by '"dark" is that there isn't enough difference between the width of the light and dark bars. Ideally, BPR should be as close to 50/50 light to dark as possible. Dominique would be more like 66/33, with the light areas twice the width as the dark.

 

[Chris09]

What she means by '"dark" is that there isn't enough difference between the width of the light and dark bars. Ideally, BPR should be as close to 50/50 light to dark as possible. Dominique would be more like 66/33, with the light areas twice the width as the dark.

Where did you get this Ratios? Neither of these ratios are in the APA SOP.
If we are breeding these birds to SOP then we should at least try to use ratios provided in the standard, that is if one is provided.
That would mean that the Barred Plymouth Rock would have a ratio of 60:40 (60% black - 40% white) as for the ration for the Dominique there is not one stated in the American Standard nor is there ratio in A.Q.Carter's Suggested Dominique Standard so the ratio of 66:33 is only a persons suggestion.


Chris

 

[WallTenters]

A personal suggestion perhaps, but one that leads to males with coloring more similar to the great males of past and present. Again perhaps that UK breeder likes his males dark, but if you show up with a Dominique male to a group of fifty Dominique breeders and fifty APA judges all honest about it all with an open mind and you put him next to a male with wider light bars and better cuckoo color side by side all other things being equal.. Chris would even you prefer the dark, evenly barred bird? I do not believe this is at all a fad I'm talking about a bird that looks much closer to the male the original Schilling photographs were taken of.

So no you cannot get good color on a single line breeding with males that dark shade, but you also can't place in a show and in -my opinion- really shouldn't :/ Don't want to discourage anyone breed what you like if you love that dark male fine set up and breed for him but he would get culled around here. You can also see he has shading on the legs, while shading may be allowed on a male Dom it is not encouraged, and if I am remembering correctly the standard only gives allowance to the female for shading, so thus a male with shading would certainly be docked for leg color. Chris can you show a photo where ever a male has been produced with that dark cuckoo cast and no shading on the front of the legs, so that the male could still fit to the American Dominique standard for leg color, even if we can all agree to disagree on feather pattern?

 

[Chris09]

A personal suggestion perhaps, but one that leads to males with coloring more similar to the great males of past and present. Again perhaps that UK breeder likes his males dark, but if you show up with a Dominique male to a group of fifty Dominique breeders and fifty APA judges all honest about it all with an open mind and you put him next to a male with wider light bars and better cuckoo color side by side all other things being equal.. Chris would even you prefer the dark, evenly barred bird? I do not believe this is at all a fad I'm talking about a bird that looks much closer to the male the original Schilling photographs were taken of.

So no you cannot get good color on a single line breeding with males that dark shade, but you also can't place in a show and in -my opinion- really shouldn't :/ Don't want to discourage anyone breed what you like if you love that dark male fine set up and breed for him but he would get culled around here. You can also see he has shading on the legs, while shading may be allowed on a male Dom it is not encouraged, and if I am remembering correctly the standard only gives allowance to the female for shading, so thus a male with shading would certainly be docked for leg color. Chris can you show a photo where ever a male has been produced with that dark cuckoo cast and no shading on the front of the legs, so that the male could still fit to the American Dominique standard for leg color, even if we can all agree to disagree on feather pattern?

Quote: They have there place in the breeding pen and in a show since color is around 28 total points of the over all scale and I don't think that a bird would be docked that many points if it is showing the same type of barring and the same shade of barring through out the bird.

Quote: Let's cut Schilling out of the picture and look at the 1913 photo of the bird that Schilling and Franklane doctored up (Schilling "cleaned up" Franklans picture), The birds where the A.Q. Carter birds.



Quote: I used that picture to show plumage not shank color, shading on the shank or anything else. I think your just knit picking now because the Leghorn has very little shading at all and the dark that is on the shanks is around the "scales" on his shanks and not a shading of the dermis.



Quote:
The are many breeds that have the Cuckoo pattern and all of the can come Dark Cuckoo, as for a bird that has clean shanks (no shading) there are many of them look into Old English (LF and Bantams), Modern Game (LF and Bantams), Cochin, etc.
Remember the gene that makes Barred and Cuckoo breeds is the same and if one Barred breed can have clean shanks then most all can.

Chris

 

[buffalogal]

Where did you get this Ratios? Neither of these ratios are in the APA SOP.
If we are breeding these birds to SOP then we should at least try to use ratios provided in the standard, that is if one is provided.
That would mean that the Barred Plymouth Rock would have a ratio of 60:40 (60% black - 40% white) as for the ration for the Dominique there is not one stated in the American Standard nor is there ratio in A.Q.Carter's Suggested Dominique Standard so the ratio of 66:33 is only a persons suggestion.


Chris

You are absolutely right, it isn't listed specifically in the standard. Still, that's the way I would describe the appearance of the ideal markings on a Dominique. You aren't going to get that, but to me, anything less than 50/50 in either sex can't help but look a bit smutty and dark, even if they do have clean barring. At my house, unless he was otherwise outstanding, a Dominique male with barring like that Leghorn would be sold, but as always, YMMV.

Edited to add; All things being equal, I would favor a lighter male. The darker male might make someone a good bird to show, and he would not knowingly be sold to end up on a plate, but he would not be put in a breeding pen because inevitably, IMHO, his pullets would be too dark. Been there, done that.