CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[Fred's Hens]

Welcome to Chicken State University.

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BYC is proud to have members who are licensed APA judges as well as recognized breeders of standard bred fowl and have been to Champion's row with their birds, many, many times. There is a growing number of folks who are serious about learning more, at an advanced level, about standard bred poultry and the Standard of Perfection for their favorite birds. This thread is NOT MERELY AN ON-LINE SHOW. Photos are very limiting and faculty and students alike recognize the reality of this shortcoming. Please bear this in mind at all time. The purpose of this thread is not about competition as it is about advanced education. Again, education is the goal.

All members of BYC are always invited to read along and audit the classes as they are presented. Let's all commit to conducting this University with the highest of integrity and honor.

This kind of honest evaluation, instruction and discussion, is simply invaluable to those growing in this hobby of standard bred poultry. We expect all CSU participants to always be kind but always honest, be more interested in learning than in being defensive or thin-skinned, and be invested in the University's objective, which it to teach, share and learn about standard bred poultry.

The faculty will judge all submissions and will make comments about the birds' color, stance, back, head, feathering, tail, breast, wing carriage or any other area that strikes their fancy. The faculty may ask questions of the bird's owner, and this will require the submitting poster to follow up with any requested information. When submitting a photo, please state the age of the bird. Sharing any other details about the birds growth, line, maturity rates, or weight is encouraged. Other breeders are encouraged to also "judge" the exhibitions, from their own perspective and understanding of the Standard of Perfection for the breed currently being discussed.


In order for CSU to operate smoothly, some adjustments may have to be made along the way. The thread may be locked for those times of adjustment and re-opened when the faculty is satisfied with the modifications to the curriculum.

OK, breeders and judges, have at it!!

 

[Cloverleaf Farm]

No Faverolle discussion is complete without a photo of "Fudge", the poster child for the Faverolles Fanciers of America. He exhibits fantastic type and color...to see the picture, you think this bird has it all. Except size. He was quite small. I've had smaller, from different lines, but where I was at at the time with my breeding program, I just couldn't use him. Luckily, he now belongs to a friend, who I have given a couple of very large hens to, and I have a cockerel out of the breeding that is in the brooder as I type this. I have high hopes for him.



This is Peaches...she is the other "poster child" for the Fav club, and one of the hens that is living with Fudge. I am 99% sure that the cockerel I have is out of her egg. She lays a HUGE egg for a Fav. Note the darker color on her...another reason I wanted to pair her up with Fudge. He is lighter, so the combination of these two birds SHOULD give me a nice mid range color. They both have exceptional beards and toes. Her leg feathering is a little on the heavy side, but again, combined with the lighter feathering on Fudge's legs, should balance well on their babies. She has a very nice, tight wing, a fantastic spread on her tail. She is the complete package for me, as far as a breeding pen. Too dark to show, however. LOVE this hen!




This picture shows a great example of the three sections you want to see in a beard: there are two distinct muffs, and the beard below.


Here's a nice, typy, large fowl black Fav pullet. Short and VERY stout. Nice tucked wing. Would like a little better tail spread, but it actually improved somewhat as she matured.



Good example of the nice "V" shaped tail spread you should be looking for in your birds:


Perfect chick toes: excellent separation on the 4th and 5th toes. No stubs on the middle toe. Favs, unlike other feather legged breeds, should NOT have feathers on their middle toe.


A pullet with very nice shape to her. Hackle feathers are a little dark, but overall color is pretty even. Though, as is common with this variety, the band over shoulders is just slightly darker than the saddle feathers. Note the width of feather in the tail.



This is why you NEVER, NEVER, NEVER cull boys for color before they are at LEAST 8 months old. Preferably older....this is Fudge, and how his colors changed:

THIS...


Turned into THIS......


Which turned into THIS.....



Just for fun: Fudge and Peaches in the club logo:

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Conversely, I always love the voice in the old literature. I find it soothing with a strong sense of place and nobility of purpose and function. I am always mindful, though, to take it with a grain of salt. They knew a lot back then, and one gets the sense that they really worked at their poultry. Still, there is a lot that they did not know. They often make grand pronouncements of gloom and doom that, nowadays we know to dismiss. Poultry authors past and present (and one often gets the sense with older writers that they at least had their hand in poultry) love to make paracommunicative, sweeping statements about breeds: "this breed is great for such and such, or this breed has a big problem with this or that thing." A breed has a potential for this or a potential for that, but the fact of the quality remains in the strain; it is an immediate effect of the breeding of each generation. The truth of the breed, or even the strains within the breed, is now:

It's often written that Dorkings are the king of all meat birds! Well, sure, in potential. It's wrapped up in their type and in the process of selection, safeguarded by the SOP. Are they actually the king of all meat birds? No, because I don't think there's a single strain in North America today that meets the genetic potential for the breed. I actually don't even think there's one that's really that close. Nevertheless, I do think there are some breeders heading in that direction, and with continued focus and discipline over time I think we'll get there .

Dorkings are often said in the old literature to be tender and to lack hardiness and to be susceptible to wetness--rubbish! All of these things are strain based and dependent on the immediate breeding of the birds. Our birds are tough, flat out tough, but this is because of selection in a trying environment. Now the single combs of the Reds and SGs aren't safe here, but that's not a Dorking statement. A Minorca wouldn't make it past November. Our coops (http://www.yellowhousefarmnh.com/photo-tour) are without insulation in the middle of a snowfield on lake level with damp, heavy air. YHF rule #1: no single combs. The rose comb of the Whites? Impervious.

I am a major reader of the old poultry literature, of old literature in general actually, but--just like reading new literature--it often needs to be taken with a grain--or a pound--of salt. At the risk of this post becoming long, I'd share this quote from a more current work, the late Dr. Carefoot's book Creative Poultry Breeding , published in 1985, which I'll abridge for the interests of brevity. In way of biography, Dr. Carefoot was a poultry geneticist and past president of the Poultry Club of Great Britain (the APA of the UK), ergo he was a writer who was specialist, breeder, and judge:

In common with many civilized societies the poultry fancy is in danger of becoming obsessed with a longing for "former glories". The current, almost paranoiac, desire is to preserve rarity irrespective of quality. Without intending any disrespect to the fancier who wishes to preserve breeds which do not appear ever to have been firmly established, when one looks at many of the rare breeds one can immediately see why they are rare [...] The breeder wishes to improve, not to preserve [...] the striving for perfection provides the interest which fuels our incentive [...] History is only important where it provides clear examples of where on can improve one's stock[...] What is gone is over. The future of quality stock is to breed aggressively with the intention of improvement. If every breed had but a handful of breeders competing fiercely, quality would almost certainly improve dramatically. Consequently the urge to collect breeds of poultry the way some collect postage stamps, does little to improve the breeds kept [...] the fancier wishing to keep rare breeds alive would be more effective if he concentrated mainly on one or two such breeds, hatched and reared plenty [...] if a breeder only breeds a handful of chickens, by in large his strain deteriorates [...] Rarity is not a virtue in itself; indeed when one sees an outstanding bird one realizes that rarity is indeed a vice[...] the production by a skillful breeder of high quality birds of a particular variety will attract sufficient interest to ensure preservation and, one hopes, improvement [...] if the conservationists attained a sufficiently high standard of stock within a particular breed it would take care of itself. In practice, high quality stock is the rarest poultry of all.


Currently, because of what's happening now, our birds are very hardy. They come into lay when they should: at 5 to 6 months. They lay steadily from fall to summer. They are not prone to any exaggerated broodiness as is often suggested in the literature until just about this time of year. When it's hot, I have to be good about frequent egg collection, or I can get four brooding in the same box; however, with regular and prompt egg collection most will lay through the summer without going broody.

Our meat qualities are strong and improve with each passing season. However, I make this statement without any comparison to modern meat birds. It is inappropriate to compare standard-bred fowl to corporate meat birds; they're simply not the same creature. Without any value judgment toward either, they're simply not the same product. Standard-bred fowl fit the traditional cookery of progression from broiler to fryer to roaster to fowl. These are seasonal cuts that perfectly match the standard-bred growing season and the appropriate cooking methods of the given time of year. This is the rhythm for which Dorkings are built and are suited.

The Dorking was a truly awesome breed developed to a high level of perfection, which is the only way it has survived the neglect it has suffered over the last fifty years. La Fleche, Crevecoeurs, Redcaps, Houdans, among others have not been so lucky; they were dropped earlier; they were dropped harder. It is funny reading the old literature when one realizes that again and again the Dorking is hailed as the very best in meat quality, but then it was universally rejected on the most superficial, even foolish, levels: it had white skin and a supernumerary toe. The great opportunity today is that no one cares about whether a bird has white or yellow skin, although poultry writers, who are most frequently not poultry breeders, continue to parrot the ridiculous idea that Americans prefer yellow skin.

On the other hand, the Dorking is at the great disadvantage of coming in far too many color varieties. The SOP admits five only three of which are currently actually valid: Whites, Reds, and Silver Greys, but many are pushing ridiculous colors that never had any ,validity at all and most certainly never will. If we can galvanize a half a dozen breeders in each of the primary three varieties of White, Red, and Silver Grey, who are willing and able to specialize, hatch in number, and hold the course, the Dorking could rebound in the next decade.

 

[thedragonlady]

I think it most always that way with new animal breeders. It is easiest to learn the fine points of a breed. Most usually, I think other breeders teach newcomers by fault-finding, using the minor hallmarks as examples. So the newcomers start out with wrong thinking, both fault-finding ( instead of virtue -appreciating) and studying the minor hallmarks ( instead of the balance and symmetry of overall breed type).
Best,
Karen

Oh, Karen, you might have opened a can of worms here. My one gripe about both club's standards has always been "cutting for defects". No mention of rewarding for virtues. Oh, yes I know all about a colored bird , and an older bird, but the emphasis is on cutting, not building . No wonder the poor Newbies start fault judging.

When I look at a bird, I first ask myself, "What's good about it ?"If I don't find any positives, I ask, "What is wrong with it." Not the other way around. It's interesting to me as to why the poultry world has embraced a fault judging system, when most other forms of livestock judging place values on positives first..... such as " I place one over two due to 1's deeper body length, and hard feathering, but 1 grants to 2 , a better topline, etc ",and so on, down the line. Tell me what's GOOD about it FIRST.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

OK, I just saw this. Something educational on Anconas and avoiding to much of a show aspect:

None of these photos are particularly good. We couldn't quite get her to pose, but beggars can't be choosers.



The difference between a Leghorn and an Ancona are few, indeed, many originally referred to Anconas as Mottled Leghorns. They both come from the center of Italy and represent was is basically the Italian chicken, la razza italiana. They evince good capacity in the abdomen. They are basically a rectangle. They are to have "good length of back". The breast is "carried well forward". This keeps it from being chopped off in the front.




The primary difference between a Leghorn and an Ancona is in the flow of the back. Leghorns have a "slight slope down from shoulders to center of back, and rising from center with a concave sweep to tail. Feathers of sufficient length to carry well up to tail." This differs slightly from the Ancona's "slight slope downward from shoulders to rear, then rising in a concave sweep to tail." My understanding of this is that the Ancona has a slightly flatter appearing back with a less dramatic sweep. It is, however, sweeping without angularity.







This exaggerated pose stresses the fullness of breast. In truth this pullet, born on 4/20/2013, is a bit of a moose. She weighs in at 5 1/2 pounds, which puts her a solid pound over hen's weight. I prefer, though, to err on the side of too big than too small. It's easy to get size down, but it's hard as heck to get it back up again.







According to the Standard, shanks and toes are yellow, but it's virtually impossible to remove all traces of black. The ABA Standard allows, "Yellow, or yellow mottled with black," which is more accurate. In Great Britain the mottling on the legs is to be very neat. Fluff is "rather short, [in females] more developed than in males." Fluff is to be "Black slightly tinged with white".



This isn't a great picture to show sheen, but it tends to run strong in our birds. It does give you a sense of width of feather seen in the tail. Her tail is slightly stacked, with which I'm fighting.





Her mottling is well balanced in all sections, but the mottling is not of particularly good quality. Mottling in general can be pretty weak in the States, especially in black birds. The best American mottling, in my opinion, is probably on Spangled OEG bantams. The Brits have a better handle on correct mottling. Hopefully over time we'll see some progress on States' side. The mottling is caused by a stoppage of pigment release as the feather first starts to emerge, leaving the feather white, or, rather, colorless. For clarity, mottling, mo, is the same in Anconas, Mille Fleurs, Porcelains, Speckled, and Spangled (as in OEG). It's all mottling, mo. As the feather begins to emerge no pigment is released, then there is a bar of black released, then the actual color of the feather emerges. In Speckled Sussex and Mille Fleur D'Uccles it makes for a three colored feather. In Anconas, it appears at first glance that the feathers are black with a white tip. However, if you observe the feather closely, you can see that the black of the feather and the black bar directly surrounding the white tip are distinct.




Her head is pretty good, without being fantastic. I'd like to see a longer leader. The wattles are, "Medium size, uniform, well-rounded, smooth, fine in texture, free from folds or wrinkles. The eye is to be reddish bay. The beak "Medium in length, strong, nicely curved; it is "yellow, upper mandible shaded with black." Earlobes are white.

 

[Fred's Hens]

There is a logic to most things. What we "see" on the outside, relates to what skeletal structure exists beneath. For example, a nice wide tent and wide rear provides space for egg production, digestion and reproduction. Space for the organs we cannot see. The deeper keel provides for most space for organs and can potentially provide for more breast meat. If the legs are set too close together, a common fault, the entire internal body of the bird gets compressed into a narrow channel. A proper head bespeaks intelligence. This is just a farmer talking, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[dt1958]

IMO, this is what a Buckeye cockerel should look like and is what I'm striving for in my breeding program.

 

[Pathfinders]

And I agree with Chris. There seems to be a misconception floating around out there that there must be good slate bar in order to have proper body color. This is not correct, in my experience. I have seen very light birds with perfectly acceptably slate bars. I have seen very dark birds with no slate bar at all. I do not find any correlation, and do not think one exists.

I like to use the analogy that breeding chickens is like working on a mobile. If you pull too hard on one end, the other will fly up in the air. The idea, IMO is to gently make changes, watching what happens over time, so as not to throw the whole thing out of whack altogether.

And I am firmly in the "build the barn then paint it camp." Always have been, always will be. Nice color on a poor frame does no one any good, especially in a bird that was designed to provide a homestead with a steady supply of meat and eggs. You can't eat color!

 

[fowlman01]

Does he hunt mice and roar like a dinosaur?

My Shamo female does and that is a rat in her mouth, not a mouse. I post this when people think chickens are vegetarians. She is 9.4 lbs.

 

[bnjrob]

Purple barring is an issue in literally all of these birds. They all have a green sheen, but they also all have varying degrees of purple barring. Purple barring is a defect in black birds. I am hoping it goes away by the time they are in adult plumage, but so far it has been persistent:




I am new at this chicken-evaluating business, so I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks!

Sarah

I would say go for type and not worry about the purple just yet. After you breed them and see what the chicks come out like, then you might start worrying about that purple a little more. In the antique book Laws Governing the Breeding of Standard Fowl, written by a poultry judge in the early 20th century, he noted that in- and line breeding would eradicate purple barring as evidenced by his experience handling Black Langshans. If you need to get rid of some males sooner rather than later, pick the best ones for size and vigor, then look at their backs/tail angle to help narrow down.

Try turning your photos into black and white. That way you can get rid of the coloring and look strictly at their shapes. Make notes on who you like and don't like, and then before you cull, study them to make sure that they didn't hold themselves funny in the photo to make them look like they have a worse flaw than they really do. Black and white photos help you disregard any color issues and help you focus better on size and type.