CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[thedragonlady]

All right, here are some hatchery buffs for you. I don't know for sure which hatchery they came from, don't think I ever asked....

Here is Meaner. while his hackles are pretty, the rest of him is too light and his underfluff is white. Also brown speckling and spots in the tall. He was a very tall boy and not that wide. Extremely human aggressive, he swam with dumplings.










I had four young pullets at point of lay last fall and lost the two bigger and prettier girls in a dog attack. The two that survived were smaller and lighter colored. This first hen was injured across her back, right in front of her tail. Her feathers still haven't really grown back well. These pics were taken around Jan/Feb. She is laying now and lays a nice but light colored egg. Her color is not very even and she could use some size, although she is larger than the other girl.





I'm not sure I have pics of the other girl; she was very light colored, with white underfluff and pretty small. She got bit in the head, a tooth went straight in at the back of her comb. Thought she would die, and was torn for days about putting her down, any way long story short she survived, but is blind in one eye. She even lays a nice large egg, which started out light tan and then turned nearly white. The other chickens had started bothering her so I sent her to a pet home where I know she will be loved and spoiled.

I do have two other pullets from a different source, but no recent pics of them. I also took a chance and bred that rooster to the two older pullets, just to see what I would get. I don't have any pics of them yet tho. Will try and get some up in a day or so.

From what I've seen of hatchery Buffs in S.C. from 3 different hatcheries, I'd say you lucked out in getting better type than I've seen. You can see the Leghorn influence in the Cock bird in his narrow body and long comb blade. That's where the aggression came from too. A good Buff Cock is a peaceful soul most often. I certainly won't tolerate a mean one.

The hen shows a cutaway breast and a proper colored hackle , but her breast and back feathering are too light, as you know. She may also have a side sprig on the right side of her comb. I'm not seeing the usual wheaten markings on her shoulders and back though. That's a good thing.

The simplest way to improve hens like this is to get 2 really good, closely related cockerels to breed to them. 2 cockerels from the same line will give you lots of genetic diversity to line breed their offspring. This is what I am helping my friend do with her flock, and she started with more problems than your birds show. Her hens were tiny, blotchy colored with wheaten markings, narrow and flighty.

We used a 50% English K on her hatchery Buff hens. The results were amazing. Much bigger, more evenly colored pullets. The wheaten markings were almost gone. I helped her select the first generation to keep. All the Hatchery hens, and their cockerels then went into the pot.

This year we have used the first K's 50% English half brother, by the same sire, back on those pullets she kept. The chicks look a lot more promising. They have deeper keels that fill your hand , and much wider bodies, with good unpinched tails. The juveniles look to be a much improved color too, with ,as of now, no sign of wheaten markings.They will be bred to their grandsire, the first K that was used , this fall. We will cull again, and continue to rotate cock birds.

My friend is interested in having a truly dual purpose breed. She sells eggs and meat. She has been amazed at the fact that the F1 birds laying was improved too. I just lucked up there, having started with heavy laying lines. My English hens tend to want to go broody too often, but crossed on my US birds, the 50% English lay steadily for 10-11 months, starting at 5 months old. We're watching out for any decrease in egg laying in future generations . I certainly like birds with a work ethic , and I want them pretty !

 

[3riverschick]

Wid was an interesting guy. Both he and Oscar Smart left detailed reports of how they created their singular breeds of poultry. Yet they are a study in contrasts of the different ends of the poultry breeding spectrum. Oscar Smart was generally lauded as the greatest poultry biologist of his time. He created the Mendel Fowl using the latest advances in Genetics and his articles on the subject reflect that knowledge and terminology of the "laws of genetics". Unfortunately he died before he could get his excellent breed well established in the public eye.
Wid Card created the White Laced Red Cornish using the art of breeding. Facts gained thru practical experience and intelligently used to make Nature bend to his will. His articles and reports on his project reflect the non technical but equally elegant and useful "laws of breeding".
We talk about the differences between the art of breeding and the use of the laws of genetics in accomplishing the same goals. In these men's works, we see both kinds of breeding programs ably discussed and illustrated.
Best,
Karen

 

[Fred's Hens]

We can and will stay with the Wellies for a few more days, if interest holds strong. We do not hold to any tight schedule here.

However. since this breed is a relative new comer to the American Standard, it is understandable that folks have differing points of view. Further, while referencing the Standards from other nations, please be advised that this thread is focused on the American Poultry Association's standard for all large fowl breeds studied.

We understand that student/teacher participants come and go at CSU, according to their interest in the breed be displayed.


There are acknowledged differing objectives and points of view, breeding, breeding for historical standards, showing, the APA SOP vs any european SOP, etc. That's all fine and well. BYC has no issue with grownups discussing these topics, even if they find they must agree to disagree. BYC takes no "sides" in these various, differing points of view. However, all BYC rules of engagement and participation apply.

Here are the BYC rules governing all threads and participation: Privacy/TOS

What nobody gets to do is be rude about their own point of view and fail to acknowledge groups of committed folks who hold to a different opinion. A little mutual respect just isn't too much to ask.

Now, back to class.

 

[Piet]

I could have phrased that a little better:
Where in general every time when foreign animals are brought to a different country, the breeders there will look at them and quickly assume that this is the best sample from the exporting country and often giving a false idea of what is really out there.
The ONLY way to REALLY get the eyeopener, is to fly there and visit a big show!
Piet

 

[7961]

This Welsummer chapter of this thread has been one of the more informational discussions..imo. The inclusion from the international breeders really has made the discussions that much more valuable; really capturing the breed from all angles. It has been a delight watching this all unfold.

 

[1muttsfan]

One of the downsides of online chat groups is that the subtleties of normal conversation can often be lost, as normal conversation includes nuances of voice and body language that are so helpful when having discussions. Emoticons are sometimes used to help express non-verbal cues, but for some situations they may be a little too light hearted. I have been flamed by those who did not recognize a tongue-in-cheek comment. We all can appreciate a little humor, and hopefully can be a little forgiving if the attempts are maybe hard to spot right away. This is a more serious group than most, but it is nice to see a little classroom humor at times. Nothing said has been meant in a derogatory way, and we certainly thank those who's expert opinions have contributed so much to our understanding.

 

[Wisher1000]

It has been my experience that when you have young cockerals coming up in a flock with one or more older roosters, they all start out that way. They know that as soon as they try to hop on, the alpha will come kick their butts. They don't have time for foreplay and the hens won't stand still, much less squat, for them, anyway. Hence the "grab ahold and hang on" tactic! I had several that turned out to be good roosters (to their girls) once they were the alpha. I also had several that never made it to alpha, and were never very mannerly with the girls. Some of the best roosters I've had were young when put in with the old biddies. The hens taught them to be polite and chastised them severely if they forgot. The old hens don't put up with foolish behavior from young cockerals. The cockerals learn if they want to mate, they have to sweet talk the hens.

 

[3riverschick]

What is your breed?

~~Originally Posted by nepoisopen View Post I'm having a hard time finding an answer in the searches for a stupidly basic question. When breeding to SOP Standards, how does one judge if the birds are meeting weight standards? I understand that a cockerel is a male bird less than a year old, and a cock is a male bird more than a year old, but when trying to determine ideal weight gains, etc, what more specific time frame is used to define a cockerel? In other words, if the cockerel is supposed to weigh 7.5 lbs, when should I expect them to achieve that weight? (6 months, 8 months?) Same thing with the pullet weights, pullets are supposed to weight 5.5 lbs when should I expect that weight, and when should I begin culling, I don't want to cull too soon for improper weight gain, but I can't find anywhere that says "Cockerel/Pullet should achieve these weights at xyz Date After Hatch" Thanks. It's really hard to search for that, and not get caught up in dozens and dozens of pages of threads of people debating what is and isn't right about breeding and how they breed to SOP, not criticizing the wealth of knowledge, just a little intimidating. -KS
===============
Hi KS,
These are good questions and I have also been struggling with them. Folk say to cull and evaluate but tough to find the numbers and times. Then I realized it depended on the purpose of the fowl one was breeding. Meat; eggs; dual purpose. In my case, I realized I was taking advice from folk with egg poultry. Now Sussex do lay eggs, but their original purpose was a roaster. I was thinking Sussex were egg layers who were once roasters. Not so. Sussex are roasters who have been brought forward as egg layers. See what I mean? We have to understand the original purpose of our breed, even tho that may not be their current purpose. If I were to breed my Sussex with a major in eggs and a minor in roaster, I would screw up the breed type.
Ok, enough of that. So how shall we then proceed? Well, breeders sent me these URLs:
~Chapter 1 Selecting for Meat Qualities and Rate of Growth
http://www.albc-usa.org/documents/ALBCchicken_assessment-1.pdf
~Chapter 2 Selecting for Egg Production
http://www.albc-usa.org/documents/ALBCchicken_assessment-2.pdf
It jives with much other info others have shared with me. Your numbers will be different than mine because your breed and strain is different than mine. But the basic system still applies. Measure the features at 8 and 16 weeks. The birds which excel at 8 weeks will probably still excel at 16 weeks.
See what I mean? We have a basic outline for analyzing and times to do it. There is no specific for each breed unless it is commercial hybrids like Hy-Line or so. Make up a spreadsheet and input the features and the times you need to check them. Start when the chicks are hatched. the first 2 weeks will tell you a lot about who is vigorous and who is not.
Best,
Karen

 

[Yellow House Farm]

YHF, do you have any idea how the European breeders and Spangled OEG Bantam breeders have managed the mottling differently? I am curious what selections were made to improve mottling, if you know. I love the pattern.

How long have you been working with Mottled Anconas? They are lovely, and virtually unheard of, a great disservice to the breed. I think I recall you saying somewhere that they are reasonably good layers and the extra males offer a decent enough carcass.

I don't know, but I've got in in my brain to be in touch with the other side of the pond. I have the contact information for a prominent gentleman in the Ancona club over there. Hopefully he'll give me some hints. One aspect is that the white is more controlled; it has no black or grey leaching into it, which is our Standard, too. There is a strong, beat division between the white, ideally V-shaped, tip and the black bar. For clarity, the tip of the V is to point up into the feather. Female Spangled OEG bantams are often very well marked, and one can see the ideal. I fear there's more than a little bit of a numbers game in the whole thing.

Another difficulty, is frequent absence of mottling in the head, hackle, and saddle of males. Apparently this is do to excess melanizers, black pigment makers, in Anconas that must be bred out if one wants well marked males.

I think Anconas, like most Mediterranean and Continental breeds, suffer because of their perceived temperament, which receives such a ridiculous treatment. Beginners' books and beginners themselves are always so quickly to call them flighty. In truth there are some that are, but many are not, and if bred correctly it doesn't take much time at all to breed the flightiness out--if it exists at all. Folks shy away from these amazingly beautiful and graceful breeds on the advice of folks who, n truth, have no business giving advice. Then, they select a "calm" breed. Frequently eggs are their ,major concern, so essentially they select a breed less suited to their needs because their afraid of the "flighty" breed. By the time they know enough about chickens to realize that the "flightiness" is not a breed trait, it's a bit too late. They've been raising such and such for so many years, and they've grown attached to them.

It cannot be stressed enough that Mediterranean and Continental breeds need more dedicated breeders and that Mediterranean and Continental breeds are often more apt at filling the niche if egg production is the primary focus. Meat, though, as you've mentioned isn't necessarily bad. Folks will often say, "They're not worth eating." I disagree; they're just not centerpiece roasts. Here's a comparison shot of an Ancona roaster against a Dorking roaster. It's not as large, but one can see that it has something to offer. Given, I do select for size and fullness of body. The Ancona is to the left. Note the yellow-tinged skin:






Something for which excess young Ancona cockerels are idoneous is the spatchcock for summer grilling. At 13 weeks, they're delicious:














I honestly think that many more folks need to give Mediterraneans and Continentals a second look. We raise Dorkings and Anconas, their difference is what makes them complementary. Don Schrider has Buckeyes and Brown Leghorns. The combo of a meat chicken and an egg chicken is pretty sweet.

 

[fowlman01]

Could you please elaborate on this? I am curious because it seems leghorns which are great layers and "thrifty" with food have pinched tails. I don't understand why a pinched tail would be so bad (except in the show ring or for breeding) Did your uncle exclusively breed for show?

The Leghorns my uncle had back in the 50's are not the hatchery type or egg laying type you see now. My uncle raised Leghorns primarily for fryers, he knew nothing about showing chickens.......and the hens for laying. They looked like the exhibition Leghorns of today in general body type. They were big birds. Egg laying birds now are hybrids and they do have pinched tails and they do lay very well.......for a very short time. The frame is to narrow for the bird and the organs are crammed into a small space that is not good for the chickens general health. "Thrifty" meant it was a viable good producing bird, not how much it ate. Egg laying chickens now are disposable laying machines, so no one really cares if they have a pinched tail. The average age of a bird here is 10 yo, birds with pinched tails generally don't last a very long time.....especially in a egg laying situation. A pinched tail is an outward manifestation that the birds frame is to narrow....whatever it's use or how well it seems to produce. Breeding for production is usually at the expense of the bird.

Walt