destruction and disposal orders HELP

[johnskoi]

i've got a flock of 40+ peafowl, 30ish geese and goslings and 50 ish silkie s/g 's.... i ordered peacock eggs from a eggs from someone in SD... her quail eggs came back pos ... they came here two days ago and took samples from my flock and eggs... all tests came back NEGATIVE .. they show up today and want to kill my birds ... i'm on the phone with lawyers as i'm typing.... i don't see why they can't just quarantine me....any help and quick help would be a GREATLY APPRECIATED the virus her quail eggs had was high path avian influenza....thanks (and if my birds ever showed anything POSITIVE, i'd be more than willing to comply)

adding my phone # because every second counts right now 631-210-4127

 

[johnskoi]

CBS news just left ... toward the end of the interview, i received a phone call letting me know that my flock has been brought back to quarantine status... THANK YOU EVERYBODY for thoughts prayers and helpful info --- it would NOT have happened without the

group effort

...i have a lot of phone calls to make right now! peace to all

 

[Blooie]

John, I watched your video, I read your post, and I heard the heartbreak and initial anger. No one blames you one bit for having such strong emotions. Yet your subsequent posts have shown understanding for those who were tasked with the sad job of taking the lives of your birds. In your video you even said that. You've shown compassion for the seller as well, worried about her losses and being willing to help her rebuild.

Know what I think, John? I think you are an honorable and genuinely nice guy. I'm so happy that nice guys don't always finish last.

 

[johnskoi]

things are looking great here every day....day 14 and the 1/2 way point with happy healthy birds!

i can't thank you all enough for everything you've done

i'll shoot some more videos later today or tomorrow ( i have a little cleaning to do first

) ...

while i appreciate everyone trying to ease my guilt, i think you'd all feel somewhat guilty as well --- i didn't search out the legalities and the restrictions like i should have before purchasing the eggs --- like i said before, my birds tested clean before i brought them here in january and i hoped for the best by ONLY ordering eggs --- i'd twitch whenever i got an egg with some'dirt' still on it (i almost always wash my eggs before incubating, but it still made me uncomfortable....)... in the back of my mind, i knew i should have been filling out paperwork --- i HATE paperwork....i really wish everybody the best here (you too, chicken vet)... wouldn't be what it is right now without all of you

...

the links have been great for info and seeing the other side as well...

i don't know if i mentioned it or not, but i received a very nice letter from the governor's office basically saying as long as i follow the qt like i've been, everything should be fine

and thank you for the ovations! --- can i trade them in for cash?? lol

 

[johnskoi]

here's the news clip: http://wtvr.com/2015/06/13/im-ecsta...ts-after-state-threatened-to-euthanize-flock/

the reporter, Chelsea Rarrick had the insight to stop at the DOA before they headed here... had she not done that, my birds would probably be dead --- the euthanizing was scheduled for dusk...

thank you ALL for your support and kind words -- it really meant and still means the world to me

 

[Teila]

Hey chickenvet97 I have a non confrontational personality and definitely do not want to get into a war of words with you or anyone for that fact.

BUT in this case, I do not believe we should be looking at the big picture.

This is not about the spread of AI or the economic repercussions from AI; this is about the proposed, unfair killing of a negative flock.

You mention “the bottom line is the eggs never should have shipped, the buyers should have educated themselves more and their actions and the actions of the seller have put others at risk”.

I believe that is not the bottom line; the bottom line in this case is that 150 or so innocent, negatively tested birds were going to be destroyed.

Killing John’s negative birds is not going to stop the spread of AI.

Granted my Rabies scenario was maybe not a good one and I did not intend to compare Rabies to AI; the point I was trying to make is that we should not randomly be killing animals because they are at risk of spreading a disease; especially when those animals test negative for that disease.

We can go backwards and forwards for days, weeks, months with thoughts and opinions on AI and how to stop the spread, handle flocks that test positive etc but I think the point to remember here is that this flock tested negative and killing them as part of the big picture would be so wrong.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:

yes

that is true i have always been very careful after reading that same information years ago and was careful not to feed my 40 year old parrot any thing i was eating for that same reason, that birds are not resistant to the numerous bacteria in human saliva. exactly

We've had various birds over the past 68 yrs - Chickens, Ducks, Geese, Blue-fronted Amazon Parrot, American and English Budgerigars, and Cockatiels, and it has been habit for us to wash before and after handling any bird or their feed, and never offered leftovers that had been eaten previously by humans (my farm Mom wouldn't even toss melon rinds eaten by humans to the flocks but only served the birds pre-cut rinds). People kiss their budgies and allow the little birds to peck in their mouth or teeth and as cute as that is to see in a video it is the worst for the health of the birds. We hate to imagine it but we humans are germ-y and domesticated birds/pets are prone to infections from us.

Quote: I'm sorry Sylvester017, I'm going to ask you to dig up that research. Not someone's opinion, not the hundreds of well-written pseudoauthoritative internet bird advice sites or Yahoo answers or any of those types of sources that are just regenerators of urban legends, not what your family has done for generations because it's worked for you, but some actual scientific evidence that this is true IN HEALTHY ADULT BIRDS. I'd settle for even just one article documenting an appropriately conducted, double blind study (if it includes raw data) done IN HEALTHY ADULT BIRDS of any species.

Because I just flat out don't believe it!

Now, I pride myself in having both an open mind and a willingness to admit when I've made a mistake, so I will apologize profusely and publicly if I am wrong here. But this is completely counter to common sense. It is completely counter to my long experience with multiple species of birds. It is completely counter to the advice of the multiple avian veterinarians I have known over the years (yes, board certified in avian medicine and/or poultry medicine, many of whom have written the major textbooks used today) who have recommended in some circumstances sharing a meal with a bird who is strongly bonded to you to stimulate social feeding behavior when the bird isn't eating well. There is no mention of it in any of the major avian or poultry medicine textbooks that I checked, including Avian Medicine: Principles and Application by Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison; Diseases of Poultry by Swain and Glisson; Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery, A Guide for Veterinary Practioners by Greenacre and Morishita; Clinical Veterinary Advisor, Birds and Exotic Pets by Mayer and Donnelly; or Current Therapy in Avian Medicine and Surgery by Speer. And quite frankly, if this were true I'm sure that at least one of the avian vets at UGA (Branson Ritchie, Cheryl Greenacre, Heather Wilson, Jennifer Graham) would have said something to me when I was visiting my sweet rooster (Emerald) after his surgery and I was sharing my lunch with him to try to get him to eat, even pre-chewing a piece of raw carrot before spitting it out into my hand to offer him, as we were all in the same room talking about his case. (This was in 2000-2001 when they were all on faculty, or doing their residency or internship in the same place at the same time.)

I suspect this is a case of misinterpretation and misapplication of medical knowledge. Here is one of the better "explanations" of why human saliva is supposed to be toxic to birds, taken from this site: http://www.birdtricks.com/blog/saliva-is-dangerous-for-parrots/.

"Cats, dogs gerbils, humans…all mammals… carry a type of bacteria in their bodies that is referred to as “gram negative” bacteria. It is present in our body fluids and we are equipped to deal with it in normal amounts. Birds, however, do not carry gram negative bacteria in their bodies and are not prepared to battle it.
Saliva is the most common way to transmit gram negative bacteria to parrots (who, hopefully, do not have access to any other body fluids from ourselves or our pets.) This means we should be careful when we kiss our birds and we should never let them eat from our mouths or our utensils"

You read something like that and it sounds like a good explanation so you want to follow that advise. Except that it's not true. Not at all. Bacteria are classified in many different ways, and one of those ways is to determine if it is gram negative or gram positive. It requires nothing more than a special stain that can be done in a little less than 5 minutes by a skilled technician. Both gram positive and gram negative bacteria can cause infection, but the gram negative infections tend to be more severe. When a vet evaluates the bacteria in a bird's mouth, or in a bird's poop, one of the things that will be evaluated is the percentage of gram negative bacteria compared to gram positive bacteria. It is normal, yes normal, for a healthy bird to have up to 5% gram negative bacteria in its mouth and intestinal system, and some will keep their balance at up to 10% without issues. It is also normal for most healthy people to have about the same amount. The specific species of bacteria may be different in different hosts, but the balance of gram positive to gram negative is similar. When something happens to bring the numbers out of balance and the gram negative bacteria are no longer held at bay, then there is a "bacterial overgrowth," which can make someone quite sick, or even be fatal if not controlled. Not because a healthy bird got a little extra dose of gram negative bacteria from its human lunchmate, as birds and humans and every other animal picks up gram negative bacteria in unsterilized food every day (as well as numerous other places -- don't do culture swabs on your phones, doorknobs, keyboards, dish drainers, faucets, dishwashers, etc if you get anxious about these types of things, because the results would be terrifying if we didn't have a healthy immune system). Bacterial overgrowth occurs either when you eat something severely contaminated (such as in some forms of food poisoning) or when there is something wrong with the animal itself, and it is no longer able to maintain a strong army of desirable, protective, gram positive bacteria. That's when the undesirable gram negative bacteria get a chance to flourish and create illness. This is very common in birds with poor diets, not because of sharing food with humans, but because of vitamin A deficiency. Vitamin A deficiency prevents the surface of the mouth and intestinal lining from forming an effective surface barrier, and normal tissue is required to support the normal bacterial balance. This is a situation where the poor diet created an unhealthy bird, without normal defenses, but would probably look healthy to its owner for months to years until it got sick, which the owner would perceive as a sudden illness and look for a recent cause instead of a chronic underlying illness. To quote Dr. Ritchie's textbook, "The primary barriers that any animal has in preventing pathogen access to the body are the skin and the mucosal linings of the intestinal, respiratory, urinary and reproductive tracts. In the normal host, this is achieved by establishing environments that are suitable exclusively for the best-adapted microorganisms with a low pathogenicity or none at all, which effectively inhibit colonization by other, less well adapted and frequently more pathogenic organisms." So if a little human saliva is going to trigger an illness in an adult bird, that bird was already sick to begin with, but the owner didn't recognize it.

The exception to this would be in an infant which hasn't had time to develop its full gram positive protective army yet, which can take 1-3 weeks depending on management style and species. That is why brooder hygiene is so vital to keeping babies alive, and why tube feeding equipment needs to be sterilized in hand feed parrots. It takes time for a chick to acquire the right type of bacteria if it doesn't get it from a healthy broody. If you carefully watch chicks, and foals, and most other animals when raised by their mother, you will see them picking at and eating the mother's manure during the first week or so. It sounds gross to us fussy humans, but it's the quickest way for a baby to acquire high levels of desirable bacteria to "seed" its intestinal system. In the real world, without the hygiene of the artificial brooder, it's a matter of survival -- a race to get lots of the protective stuff into you before you get too much of the bad stuff, and eating healthy poo is the surest way to do that immediately. So while I prefer broody hens and rarely use artificial brooding any more, when I do set up my brooder I bring a small amount of fresh poop in twice daily from my healthiest, most vigorous adult birds to lightly sprinkle around the brooder. The chicks or poults pick at it for the first week or so, and they thrive with their newly operational defenses. People say that the gut is one of your most important immune organs. I wouldn't trade healthy bone marrow for it, but I do agree that the defense it provides is essential to survival.


Johnskoi, I'm so sorry -- I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Super amazing, OMG, CONGRATULATIONS on having your quarantine finally done. It's over!!! Can't imagine what a huge weight that is off your shoulders. Hope you can finally get some peaceful sleep, knowing that there won't be some last minute snafu where the nightmare starts all over again. Time to relax and enjoy those beautiful birds.

 

[Teila]

Just a thought John

When your flock clear quarantine on the 4th of July and return all negative tests, I wonder if it is worth seeing if CBS will do a follow up to the story? Especially considering the date.

At the moment it rests at 1. destroy order issued, 2. reversed, 3. flock quarantined and I believe it needs to have closure with 4. flock passed quarantine, tested negative throughout and had the owner not spoken up would have been destroyed.

My thoughts are that it needs to be shown that the decision to destroy was not only a hasty one which was luckily reversed but that is was also the wrong one and had it gone ahead all of your babies would have been destroyed for no reason.

 

[Teila]

Howdy chickenvet97 I can honestly say that, in this circumstance, yes I would still be happy for Johnskoi if he was my neighbour. Actually, I would probably be ecstatic because the flock next door to me tested negative!

His birds have tested negative all along and he has repeatedly mentioned that if they test positive he will not stand in the way of what has to be done.

I was the one who suggested a follow up story if the results were negative all throughout the quarantine and the quarantine was lifted. If not for John’s efforts and the CBS story, his birds will have been destroyed for no good reason.

I can understand the killing of a positive flock and I can also understand the placing of a quarantine within a 6km radius of a positive flock BUT I most definitely can not understand “them wanting to kill everything before there is a positive”.

Rabies is an issue in the US is it not? Does “wanting to kill everything before there is a positive” also include dogs at the risk of getting rabies?

 

[johnskoi]

The AI outbreak has been ongoing since December. It is not a new news story. They have been reporting it sporadically and now that egg prices are going up it is becoming more of a hot topic.It has certainly been well discussed in all poultry circles. The USDA has published every outbreak. Most states are requiring some increased surveillance for AI prior to importing eggs or birds- which usually means a recent AI test ( 72 hrs-7days depending on the state). It behooves every poultry person to apprise and educate themselves to these changing rules. It behooves producers and sellers to follow these rules as well. Ohio has banned all import of eggs or poultry from states with infections- period. Does not matter if that infection was 500 miles away from where you want to buy eggs from. This should tell you something- it is serious and it is unpredictable in its course. To date there are 223 farms infected in the United states. They are not completely sure of the transmission- but it can be carried on the surface of eggs, the packaging material or even the box itself- so just because the eggs test negative, that is not a 100% guarantee. If your flock becomes infected, it could be days before you know, so you walk in and take care of your birds, get some feces on your shoes. No big deal right? Now you decide you need some feed so you go to the local feed store. Some of that poop falls off your shoes, and a farmer walks through it- he goes back to his farm and goes to check on his birds, now carrying AI laced feces with him. Maybe he has 10 birds, maybe he has a million layers. His farm is now infected. So now Georgia or Alabama or wherever now has a confirmed case of AI. No big deal right? Well it is reported to all the other countries that we have trade agreements with that this state has a reported case of High path avian influenza. Most countries, japan, China, The Uk etc will now ban all poultry products from that state, and not for the 21 days it takes to lift the quarantine- it will be months. It will cost the state of Georgia or Alabama or Louisiana- or wherever, millions in clean up, testing and quarantining on top of the economic losses to those companies that cannot export their products. So who cares if the government has a huge bill- we pay taxes right? Behind every poultry farm is a family- maybe they work for a corporation, or maybe they are one of the last hold outs- trying to just survive as an american farmer- they have just lost a good majority of their income. This is not some over dramatic representation of the situation- this is what has been happening all over the Midwest since April. The economic losses from exports alone is over $5 billion dollars. $5 BILLION. Let that sink in for a minute.

48,091,293 birds have been affected.​

Let that sink in. Behind everyone of those birds is a farmer or a backyard flock owner. I feel for every person that loses a bird to this terrible disease and I dread the fall when migration begins south and those on the east coast start seeing cases. But if you buy eggs or birds from a state that has had infections- then you better be willing to accept the consequences. If you live in a state that has had infections- then stop selling, don't wait to be told to do it, just do the ethical and moral thing and worry more about your neighbor than your pocket book. This is not about the government stepping on your civil liberties- this is about trying to stop an epidemic, to save your back yard flock as much as the big egg producer. This is about trying to prevent the next world pandemic- this strain is a mix of the strain that has been causing deaths in China. These viruses mutate and mingle and change all the time and they are one mutation away from infecting people at any given moment- think that is a stretch? Well all workers and clean up crews at the infected farms are being advised to take Tamiflu, a flu prevention drug. This is not a joke, this is not it will never happen to me,this is a disaster for the poultry industry.

believe me , if i was aware of the severity of the outbreak along with the geographical hot spots, i wouldn't have ordered eggs from where i did and i may not have ordered eggs at all ...

i've been up front about who i am here --- is there a reason as to why there is NOTHING in your profile as to who you are?... you say that you're chicken vet ---- i question that and think you should ujpdate your profile to increase your credibility... --- and maybe lend a hand in the emergency section in this forum instead of trying to attack and discredit me...i screwed up BIGTIME here and no one knows it more than me...

... and i have WONDERFUL neighbors who have been nothing BUT supportive (and i just moved here in december) ..i'm curious -- how well do you know your neighbors and do you think they'd support you in a similar situation?

i almost wonder if you have stock in 'tamiflu' or the white booties...