Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Thanks, that is helpful for me.
It doesn't help my coop situation...but I see colorful birds in my future.

Perhaps others have seen the Crele Penedesencas? They look very much like the more colorful Crested Legbars, except Penedesenca's have matching hackle and saddle feathers; both are lightweight birds but have different silhouettes.
Hangtown Farms is a key Penedesenca breeder, found on BYC and Facebook.
Here's a link to Jason's website and his Crele photos.
http://www.penedesencausa.com/crele.html

The Hangtown farms Penedesenca rooster in that link -- (THANKS for the link) - looks more like the crele on an OEGB than a lot of the Legbars. I think it is the sharpness of the barring

It is interesting that they relate the white legs to the barring gene.

COLORATION
COMB , FACE and WATTLES: Red
EAR LOBES: At least 3/3 white enclosed in red.
EYES: Black with honey iris.
BEAK: White or almost white.
SHANKS and TOES: White ( This is the affect of the gene that causes the barring.)
EGGS: Very dark reddish brown.

I've heard that crele Penedesencas are in high demand and short supply. Of course the dark eggs and no crest make them different from Legbars.
However - the dark barring of the Hangtown chicken in that picture, and the white shanks - would be one disproof of the theory that the darker the yellow of the legs, the more saturated the plumage of the chicken.

I will have 4 roosters here shortly. 3 are only about 6-months old, but I will photo their legs and their overall plumage. and compare the color intensity to where the legs have a nearest match on the OAC's yellows page(s). I will also compare Lillians orangey-yellow on my monitor to the OAC so others can determine if we are seeing approximately the same thing. (providing you have an OAC handy)


http://www.juststruttinfarm.com/photos.html

the above link and photo has a similarity also to the target of crele coloration Legbar. It is from just struttin' farm's website. The neck hackles seem less 'gray and white' or B&W than Legbar, but it is sure a beautiful rooster...and is another indication where leg color and pattern/color intensity don't correlate.

Incidentally - the hens on the link from sol2go - seem to have more patterns on their plumage - the term Partridge means something different in Europe & here in the States...but those hens have more penciling and - is it spangling where only the feather tip is black ...from what I can see in the photo. On this computer they look more like what is called Partridge in the USA. We has some thoughts at one time that some of the pattern irregularities were introduced by using out-crosses other than e+ Wild Type on the E-Locus birds. (to change something about the Legbar)-- we may have a lot of female variation as we look into Crele...Especially when we look at the breast feathers of the salmon -- but that could also just be melanizers, couldn't it?

here is a female Penedesenca from random internet search



here is a really nice shot of a female from the Hangtown Farms link provided by Sol2Go-- showing that the female doesn't have salmon breast and has a pattern. so salmon female plumage doesn't seem to tie to red shoulder on the male (if there is a relation between these two Penedensencas.)

For the females of the new color variety - salmon breast would be a requirement for autosexing. I think I read on the Penedesenca link that their autosexing is determined by head spot. No mention of chipmnk stripes as I recall. The females here would be very different - but the males - except for the legs and crestlessness are very similar.

 

[dretd]

Quote: Since there is no genetic test for ig commercially available, we are going off of the perceived color of Cream. Because red and black pigment can darken the color it leaves us with a question of whether a bird is a highly melanized red-saturated cream bird or a gold that has no red and black making it look so pale as to pass for cream.

The SOP does not allow for chestnut in the wing triangle in spite of having plenty of allowance for chestnut elsewhere which leads me to believe that the breeders so not believe that it is normal to have red there.

Punnett's paper on Cream went into detail about the wing triangle http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf he says there is no chestnut in the outer web of the wing triangle:
"...though less intense, chestnut on the Brown Leghorn remains chestnut in its cream counter-part. The difference in ground color between cream and gold offers a chance to distinguish in a black-red between coloration due to gold and that due to chestnut. Such a test is the outer web of the secondaries which in the Brown Leghorn is of a bright gold-brown....The bright brown outer web if the former (ed-Brown Leghorn) is replaced in the latter (ed-Cream) by white. The inference is that in the black-red male this part of the colour scheme is dependent on the development of gold pigment, and is independent of chestnut" Translated: there is no red other than gold in the wing triangle.

These two finding have lead me to conclude that the males that show gold/chestnut in the wing triangle are genetically other than ig/ig. Am I saying that everyone has to go with this? No, of course not. I am just trying to parse out for my own flock, what an easy tell will be to distinguish non-cream from cream. I really love the color on many of the chestnut boys and find them quite beautiful. When our regional director Tony Markley had a gold and cream show and tell event, the majority of attendees preferred the coloration that had more gold/chestnut. This is one reason I think that an Alternate colorful variety could do very well.

If I understand correctly - you are saying if the wing triangle - which is comprised of the secondaries - is barred with the gray (light gray/dark gray) as the standard calls for - but has light hackles and matching light saddles and an added (non-gray) color on the secondaries.

Wings: Fronts and Bows—dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
Coverts—gray, barred, tipped in cream

Primaries—dark gray, faintly barred, some white permissible.
Secondaries—dark gray, more clearly barred.

so I scooped this from the SOP on club's website - and it would lead me to believe that anything other than some permitted chestnut on the top of the wing would not be a fit to the standard for the Cream Legbar.


did I understand the question correctly?
ETA - or maybe it is the opposite....gray in secondaries only -- but different color hackles and saddles - so it wouldn't be a characteristic as we thing it would.

The SOP committee has been looking at and trying to parse out the British description for quite some time and continue to look and table the discussion until we figure out better what is correct. We currently have a question in to the the British judge to get his clarification.

In Duckwing males if you open the wing you will see the outer web (leading web, front edge, lower web) of each secondary feather is colored (gold, bay etc) and the remainder of the feather is brown/black so that when the wing is closed, you only see the colored triangle. In Light Brown Leghorn the wording is: " Secondaries--dull black, lower web edged with light brown of sufficient width to form wing-bay of the same color". If you cream-ify the wing, that leading edge will have no perceptible gold and look cream/off-white/white so that when the wing is closed, the wing bay/triangle will be white-ish.

If you put barring on the leading edge of the secondaries, you will get colored and white barring so that the wing bay looks brown/gold and white barred.

If you have a very narrow colored leading edge of the secondaries, then you will see some black showing in the wing triangle. When this is barred, you will get white and black/colored bars and the barring will look brown/grey and white when the wing is folded. Because the black and gold are overlapping and the baring turns the color on and off in the same location, you will see the white barring for sure, but you will have the black overlaying the gold/brown and making it harder to see the gold (or lack thereof) on the wing.

Of the many Cream Legbar male wings we have looked at, we are seeing about a 50/50 split between the duckwing color and thus a barred ceam and white (looking like a solid white-ish wing bay) and the narrower edged secondary showing a grey and white barred wing triangle.

We are not sure by the British description which is the preferred pattern and thus the question for the judges.

 

[cooliechick]

I have both CL and Penedesenca (mostly partridge) chickens. I have had the Pene's for almost a year, and just started with the CL. None of my PP's have salmon on the breast and I have not seen any photos with salmon either. The Penedesenca's are more rare than the CL's so it is hard to get many for comparison. There are colors of the Pene's in their home country of Spain, that we do not have here. I am not knowledgeable enough to describe them. I do have one crele hen (possibly a cross between two colors), and she also does not have a salmon colored chest (now to find her a mate). I also received a white Pene... and I don't know if he is a color cross (PP/crele with an Empordanesa...(they are white), or, if he is a "sport". <sigh> I will be "playing" with his gene pool to see what he will produce. ( Note to self... build more chicken coops.)

Here is what there is towards an SOP for the Crele Penedesenca

ROOSTER PLUMAGE
Barred with very light gray and black in all sections. Incorporating shiny red bars at the head , neck , back and wing-coverts as well as brown bars on the secondaries.

HEN PLUMAGE
Barred of very light gray and black in all sections. On the black bars there are small brown spots which are absent on the tail, primaries of the wings and on the lower part of the secondaries rachis. At the head and neck appears golden bars.

This discussion is interesting and good, but I wonder if micro-managing the color being sought for, will in the end, discourage breeders... like the Pene's have more than one color. Maybe it would be wiser to keep to more open thoughts... but one color be "favored".

It seems more needs to be known about the DNA of the colors involved here. Examples are available in horses. There are now dilute colored and spotted (pinto) registered Thoroughbreds... a breed that once only allowed grey, black, chestnut (brown) and bay (a brown horse with black "points"). DNA forced this change when oddly colored horses were known purebreds by the breeder but there was no proof. Now there is.

 

[ChicKat]

It seems more needs to be known about the DNA of the colors involved here. Examples are available in horses. There are now dilute colored and spotted (pinto) registered Thoroughbreds... a breed that once only allowed grey, black, chestnut (brown) and bay (a brown horse with black "points"). DNA forced this change when oddly colored horses were known purebreds by the breeder but there was no proof. Now there is.

I have wished we could get DNA test for some years now....

I would be so interesting

....and I think that the horses due to pedigrees, can prove things that chickens - since they are without pedigrees cannot. Thanks for the insights. I do know the family tree of my chickens--so I am starting on a pedigree.....

 

[dretd]

Quote:
FMP--you have a very valid point. Even though the birds are Crele genetically, the APA has its own nomenclature and it may not mesh with genetics in all circumstances. If the APA believes that Crele only means distinctly, uniformly and darkly barred and that is what is in the judges brains, they will see the word Crele and judge the birds from their ideal in their heads not by what the eventual SOP says.

SO a couple of questions:
1) Do we want to breed to the darker richer Crele standard?
2) Is there enough of a difference between the Colorful and the Cream males at this time that a judge could look at them and not have to wonder which variety they would fall under?
3) What names should we be thinking of as possible names for the colorful variety? For instance, you had identified Light Brown as a possible name for the Rose combs. Because these birds are barred, the name seemed to not be as descriptive as I would like. Can you think of other names that might be candidates that the APA would understand?

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

FMP--you have a very valid point. Even though the birds are Crele genetically, the APA has its own nomenclature and it may not mesh with genetics in all circumstances. If the APA believes that Crele only means distinctly, uniformly and darkly barred and that is what is in the judges brains, they will see the word Crele and judge the birds from their ideal in their heads not by what the eventual SOP says.

SO a couple of questions:
1) Do we want to breed to the darker richer Crele standard?
2) Is there enough of a difference between the Colorful and the Cream males at this time that a judge could look at them and not have to wonder which variety they would fall under?
3) What names should we be thinking of as possible names for the colorful variety?  For instance, you had identified Light Brown as a possible name for the Rose combs. Because these birds are barred, the name seemed to not be as descriptive as I would like.  Can you think of other names that might be candidates that the APA would understand?

It is like a crele in pattern but not a good crele so we will have issues even if we call them something like gold crele. I mentioned ages ago that legbar could be the pattern with there being light brown, cream, and maybe a silver eventually. Like the buttercup chickens have their own unique pattern that is almost like the gold pencilled hamburgs but not quite. We could push for the crele term but have their own standard like the different types of lacing (sebright compared to wyandotte) or even the dark cornish/dark brahma comparisson.

My cockerel I posted is my ideal. I will never breed a legbar that is dark like a normal crele. It just looks weird to me, just like the light/cream colored birds.

 

[ChicKat]

got some Legs and their colors -- I will post each bird in a separate post - these are females - and I know that the color variation is most obvious in the males -- but these two do have very differing colors...they aren't going to be used as breeders at all. so maybe a bad choice for discussion, they were in a trio I bought - but here goes:


Of course there are multi colors on her leg, if you had to flatten it out I think it wold come in close to OAC812 - or between OAC812 and OAC813. She was about 6-months old - and had a pretty but very unusual coloration - with a lot of pattern and a lot of saturation. Which would support darker legs - darker colors --












I suspect the E-Locus on this pullet wasn't e+

I don't think this is an example of Crele pattern, It is more like lacing...very unusual - but for coloration - could have the colors for Crele? I don't know the parentage of this pullet - which is really weird for me - because I know who's mom & who's dad of my hatches.... These were purchased as part of a Trio.

ETA in the full chicken picture, her crest doesn't stand up -- it is caught there in a gust.

 

[ChicKat]

Here is pullet 2

to my eye, she is closer to OAC807 - or between OAC807 and OAC814 -- so kind of more willow in her leg.









The slightest crest of a CL that I have seen...maybe 3/8 inch - and gray -- very pretty chicken -- but not what I am breeding for.

Until these photos, I didn't see a crest on her - so maybe she is just growing it out late...or maybe I need to look at everything through the camera lens.

both of these have the saturated salmon that I would expect...some of the 'true cream' ones may have a much pinker color of salmon -- which again may be something that separates the varities. -- This is a point that Sam Brush made at the Texas State Fair--- salmon is a range of colors.



Would the coloration of the second pullet (this one) qualify for 'cream' ?? Hackles are very pale, legs a little paler than the first one, and back and wings.. Maybe a bit more gray.... anyone have any thoughts on these two - or any to post for comparisons?

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

That is one thing I really need to work on in my legbars is leg color, mine have pale yellow legs.

I will try to post a better opinion later but the lacing on the first bird really throws me off. She does have more of a normal crele pattern otherwise though. Even without seeing them standing, the second bitd looks more production leghorn style in the body to me. Again, without the lacing, she would have decent pattern. She is more cream than my birds and too light for my liking. I get cream colored birds from my flock but always send them on because I prefer the richer color.
If the rain holds off, I'll try to get some new pics of my pullets. I kept 2 rose combed pullets this year. One has a great comb and body but has the lacing. I have never bred from a laced bird before but the 'barn' is great, the main 'paint' is good, the trim just needs some fixing so she is a keeper for now.

 

[ChicKat]

That is one thing I really need to work on in my legbars is leg color, mine have pale yellow legs.

I will try to post a better opinion later but the lacing on the first bird really throws me off. She does have more of a normal crele pattern otherwise though. Even without seeing them standing, the second bitd looks more production leghorn style in the body to me. Again, without the lacing, she would have decent pattern. She is more cream than my birds and too light for my liking. I get cream colored birds from my flock but always send them on because I prefer the richer color.
If the rain holds off, I'll try to get some new pics of my pullets. I kept 2 rose combed pullets this year. One has a great comb and body but has the lacing. I have never bred from a laced bird before but the 'barn' is great, the main 'paint' is good, the trim just needs some fixing so she is a keeper for now.

Really good idea for an approach. Type is the most important thing for our breed, and over the last couple of years I think it was set aside for color. I'm not 100% on exactly which way to go right now to get the barn right. These two - were not bad..but they have moved on - I will have to get some photos of my stock for type evals.

Definitely the ones that FMP had in the shows - shown in great pictures in other threads...and type - the cockerel and the pullets. The cockerel also (pictured in this thread) is the example for coloration.

I think too, it may be possible that the second of those pullets would/could be considered cream...and she did have a lot of gray-- but still not totally. Even her crest was kind of more gray. I see that the crele version if we go there will retain the dark crests that came to the USA first.

Salmon on both those are what I consider salmon - but patterns NOT good IMO. I noticed that one of the pullets even had a couple of black-looking feathers in her breast which I didn't notice in 'real life' - strange strays.