Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss, evaluate and weigh the pros and cons of the Legbars in the USA that fall outside of the Cream Legbar Club's DRAFT SOP which is the UK SOP as translated to the necessary wording requirements of the APA.

The Cream Legbar Club has sanctioned a committee to investigate what would be needed to accommodate additional Legbars.

That being said - it is examining Legbars that have the entirety of the breed traits including crests, blue eggs, and autosexing.

Please focus posts in this thread to the discussion of SOP - both the draft version the Cream Legbar Club has developed to date 10/13/2014 - and to requirements that would be needed for additional varieties of Legbars, should enough interest materialize. For example - the recessive white Legbar, and the "more colorful legbar."

We had proposed the name 'crele' for the more colorful Legbar. Crele is wild type (E-locus = e+) with barring (B/ on female and B/B on male). There is already divergence if this will work since the OEGB Crele varies from the Cream Legbar's pattern of Crele. We may use a working title of tri-colored. All poultry plumage genetics is made of black and red with white showing the absence of any pigment in the feather. So tri-color would contain the golds (showing up as golds and chestnut), and the black and the white... (gold is red - we can delve in to that or you can read the great article here written by Grant Brereton http://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/the-other-type-of-gold-red to help keep focus)

Thanks for your help in keeping this thread focused on the purpose of DISCUSSING the development of an alternative SOP for Legbars who's owners have been told that they are 'too gold' among others that are on the scene now or may be on the scene shortly that are a mismatch for the existing DRAFT SOP on the Cream Legbar Club's website (link to Club site is in my signature)-

As always for the best outcome - please maintain the highest respect for your fellow BYC posters.

ETA 10/14/2014 - the idea that added development of SOP alternatives are needed is partially based on the assumption that some 'cream' legbars are missing the ig/ig genetics. So, white Legbars - easily determined, gold Legbars should the need for an SOP arise, and silver legbars likewise...the ones of most intense focus for this thread as we begin are the ones that we will call 'crele' or 'tri-colored'. Acknowledgement to the rose-combed variety under development - the important deciding factor would be the comb, and the color pattern would resemble the light-brown-leghorn with the addition of barring for autosexing. I suspect that the name of the variety would be Rosecomb Legbar...FMP can correct me if I have it wrong.

 

[fowlman01]

Thanks for posting dretd
I hope we do hear from @fowlman01

Meanwhile I'll pop in for some comments:
question #1 - a) Cream = ig/ig is the answer for me
question #2 - I think the current naming conventions "Cream" and "Crele" are fine, if the Cream has a softer overall look and the Crele has a bolder coloration. I would not favor the term "dilute crele". Especially since "dilute" could reference an entirely different "dominant dilute" genetic at work. See @ChicKat 's recent link to Classroom in the Coop, discussions on or about 10/21/11.
www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=99193&page=all

The concept of dominant dilute, Di/Di, has also been related to the lighter shades of brown leghorns, specifically that it acts as a dominant gold diluter in addition to anything that cream ig/ig would impact, which may be a factor in the "whiter" birds we are seeing.

In that discussion they do occasionally refer to "Cream Crele", but never "Dilute Crele", so I think "Cream" is the operative term.

Your comment:
Punnett in one of his papers (http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf and the paragraph about the secondaries is found just above the entry "Rhode Island Red Cross" on page 329) describes how red doesn't show up in the wing triangle, only gold. So looking to see if there is gold in that location is the best way for a breeder to get an idea if their bird is ig/ig or Ig/?. It is a tool in the tool box to decide what you have.
…has always been the litmus test for me of gold vs cream. Today I noticed another part of that statement that answers a loose end for me. I have always wondered if we were seeing red/chestnut instead of gold on the wing triangle. So your referenced information is very helpful for me to stay focused on is it gold or cream in the wing triangle.
I think if we can accept that as a reliable standard, it is a key point that would readily identify "Cream" vs "Crele" for the purposes of APA standards.

For the purposes of breeding, if the rooster's genotype is split for cream, and his phenotype is gold based on the wing triangle, then his offspring with a cream female could meet the APA requirements for breeding 50% true for cream. If everything else is equal, then he would be a valuable breeder for either variety. In the long run, I suspect that won't work as well if the Crele version wants to be more saturated than the Cream.

Time is our friend. As we all work towards our own preferences, the authentic characteristics of Cream and Crele will become clear and provide a solid basis for distinctions between the two. Staying with the effort also shows a true attachment to the breed and the varieties within it, beyond just a short term hobby or trend.

As far as the APA is concerned the bird has to look like the description proposed and breed 50% true. The 50% is to cover complex colors like this. The decision has to be made on what the description will say. If the description ends up different than the British description, we will want to know why it is different. It can be different, but we will need a good reason why it is different.

Walt

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

To start the dicussion - I will post some examples -- Hopefully those who support the really light and those who support the really colorful will weigh in. The one who's saddle is in the previous post, I designated as 'as light as I would ever go' -- so if those of you who are serious about the breed could post your examples of your farthest acceptable to light and your farthest acceptable to colorful -- maybe we could make some progress..... I think Elissa's look-alike is close enough to UK to use that one and then it is depersonalized to a degree. But I think I have to go with chicken pickin's cream in her avatar that is pictured here as the light end, so it can't be depersonalized there. Diane MacDonald's birds are on the website -- and -- did I hear a rumor that she has left Cream Legbars and gone to Ayam Cemani (Betcha they don't argue about color over in that breed...;O) )




ETA CP - I think I got the right guy - and if there is a different picture that shows it better -- please let me know!


also for reference, I think that this is an example of a middle-of-the road CL - from sol2go who was thinking it was gold - but I'm not so sure if we change one word in the SOP that it wouldn't become cream.






so please weigh in on your views. Also if you read this thread it is suggested that the Applegarth pair would be the reference point to say -- lighter than or darker than...or however the correct terminology has evloved. THANKS!!!

Chickat, thanks for going ahead and posting pictures. I know it can be hard to use examples without potentially offending someone. I am having a hard time collecting pictures so I am going to cheat and just use the ones you posted. I think pics 1, 3, and 4 are what I consider the "ideal range" of color. With 4 being on the light end. I feel that 5 followed by 2 would be on the most colorful end.

I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

 

[dretd]

Not a great photo, but here is one example of a cockerel that could fit in a Crele standard. Note the richness of his gold saddle and overall the enhanced melanization as compared to Cream:

 

[chicken pickin]

I agree with @ChicKat in the sense that the amount of money you might pay or be asked to pay all depends on that sellers area market/demand allows them to charge. I look at those birds in the pic you posted and see a good foundation flock for someone just starting out. A word of caution, if a person breeding and selling Cream Legbar are not aware that the Legbars being put out into our country are mostly not correct and require lots of work to get to them closer to standard then other people new to the breed may not know either and just continue to the same cycle. Just because you breed a Cream Legbar to a Cream Legbar it does not make it a correct Cream Legbar if that makes sense. Judging but the picture it looks as though the males carry the gold gene, and I can not tell if the females are crested or not. Like Chickat said also one female looks to be molting so she may be older, which is fine if you don't mind that.

For me personally when I occasionally sell my CL, I have sold not correct for cream, meaning they showed gold in color, pullets under the age of point of lay for $20-35 depending specifically on age. For correct for cream pullets nearing point of lay I have sold them for $45. I have yet to sell a laying pullet or hen so I do not know how I would price them. And I have yet to sell or rehome any male CL from my flocks, I cull them all if they are not suitable breeders (just my personal preference). I think a person striving for a good flock that is being worked on by moving them closer to the SOP can with confidence charge a little higher and be comfortable doing so. People that breed Cream Legbar just to result in Cream Legbar offspring to sell because they think all CL are worth more money well they have another thing coming.

I suggest that if you are interested in a started flock or even this persons flock specifically, ask them many questions and find out how long they have been breeding them and if they have been doing any work to improve them. Also is there a reason they are rehoming these CL? Are they Culls? Are they their original stock? Are they Offspring of the original stock? This may tell you if these birds are a work in progress that you yourself may be able to continue to move forward. I have heard a saying recently related to breeding and that is "If your not moving forward, your moving backward". And I love that saying because it reminds us that we all need to continue to move forward in our plans with what ever breed it may be that we are working on. Another good saying I learned " If you fail to plan, you plan to fail". Another good reminder for us to have a plan as we move forward. Even if the plan is small, each achieved plan is one step closer to where we should be.

If you are not in love with this flock for sale there are plenty of other CL out there, started flocks as well as eggs from very good sources that are working towards correct color and type. Its best to start with the very best foundation birds you can find. Of course you need to look for a source that as stock that suits your needs. Whether it is Cream or Golden Crele is up to you. But remember to also look for type it is the most important.

Now that I went on to write an entire page Im not even sure if I made sense lol so sorry for the novel of my opinion it may not have gotten you anywhere further than where your thoughts already were lol.

Good Luck!

 

[chicken pickin]

Buffy Your position is more clear now thank you. I have one more question which is likely a can of worms. If there is such large of a spectrum of Cream. ... Is it important for the breed to have an acceptable/recognizable color look? As there is already, seemly a need for the word... Crele, Gold, etc. In order to describe what color the Legbar is. I am not being argumentative, just digesting the information received here.
I know this debate will not be settled here, but I appreciate the time and knowledge of those involved in the conversation. I also believe the breed and standards are a work in progress with lessons yet to be learned. I feel the point has been made, heard and validated the more colorful birds are desirable, and I believe the people here care about the breed and want what is best for it. Thanks all for the input and education along the way.

From this thread alone there has been great discussions and walk thrus of the already proposed SOP. We compared lighter colored males (more monocramatic) and more colorful males as we discussed the Standard. During the walk thrus and discussion it seems we learned that the SOP is open to individual interpretation , no right or wrong answer when you are breeding to what you believe to be correct. That said we learned the range of color acceptable on the Cream Legabar is quite great ranging from very little color (almost looking black and white) to being more vibrant colored in the allowed areas (chestnut is allowed in 4 areas on the Cream Legbar, as little or as much as each breeder chooses). Even female crest is open to interpretation may it be dark gray with some cream or mostly cream with some gray even chestnut is permissible. I agree no matter the range of color on the Cream Legbar, a Cream Legbar is a Cream Legbar, some just not to standard.

We have come a long way in learning more about the Cream Legbars colors and this thread has helped many people tremendously (thank you @ChicKat ). Many people might not even know that the cream color on the Cream Legbar is a warm butter color, not white) We want color just in the right areas if that makes sense.

Toward the end of the discussions on this thread many of us have come to agree that it is not really necessary to create a standard for these more colorful birds people are calling "gold" or "crele" because the line between what some consider correct Cream and others consider too colorful is too thin, so much confusion will come from doing such a thing, IMO. Also in my opinion, there isn't enough differences to distinguish to 2 "varieties besides maybe more color in the wing triangle and saddle in the males and rusty colored breasts and yellow hackles in the females. I truly do think people will be confused and all over the place not know what they have.

You can still have a Cream Legbar with color and still breed it toward the standards keeping the color you desire its all about the balance of colors and keeping them in the appropriate areas.

I still haven't gone back to read the other posts, I need to do that lol so hopefully Im not inappropriately posting or repeating. Someone jump in if I was innacurate or if you want to add anything.

 

[fowlman01]

To clear up some things from the APA perspective: Ranges in color in the descriptions are not usually permitted and when permitted are very narrow. There is no way to keep everyone happy when the description is finally agreed on. The type of the bird is the most important but this is also a complex color pattern that will need constant attention while working on type. The type should be the British version of the Leghorn not the APA version.....so we have a different looking bird that will need some education of the judges. If the education is not done correctly judges that don't know the breed will assume.... as I initially did, that the type is like the APA Leghorn.

I haven't read your written version of the type. Does it describe it correctly?

The APA does not get into the genetic makeup of the birds. Some of the reasons why are: most people don't know what genes their birds are really carrying and as noted here ...there is usually more than one way to arrive at the color. We just require that they breed 50% true. In this color pattern you will always have a range in color with very few hitting it close to the mark. You may also have to do matings for well marked males and females from different matings. I can see progress.......keep at it!

Walt

 

[KPenley]

Ok, I don't mean to beat a dead horse but I have been reading all these recent posts with great interest. I am still trying to understand all of this and how I should be moving forward with my birds. In referencing the cream debate, right now I guess I can see both "sides" and I think both have great points. 

My take on it is that Chickat believes there is room for more genetic variation. Dretd states the bird isn't really cream unless it is double for cream genetically and the tell is the wing triangle. Walt states that it doesn't really matter what the genotype is as long as the birds looks like the written standard. But a lot of the birds look the same or similar. And if they look the same (except for the black and white wing triangle which isn't a DQ is it?) then why can't they both be worthy of breeding forward? 

If you can get the same type and the same look...does it matter if they are double for cream? I am really trying to wrap my head around this.  

Great question. No, ultimately as long as the bird looks like the description of the standard it can be shown as that bird. We don't have pedigrees like horses, dogs, etc. There was actually a trick played on judges a few years ago when a bird of mixed parentage was shown as something else, and it won. But the judges were not amused, and the competitors learned that phenotype is what matters in standards.

Currently the standard calls for no chestnut in the flight feathers or saddle of a cream Legbar rooster. This does not mean that a bird with excess red or who is genetically gold or split for cream can't be shown. These are not DQs. But it should not place as high as a bird who is closer to the standard, if the type of both birds is equal. Type counts for a lot more than color. Another important thing to note is that Walt mentioned that a great deviance in color will not help us get the first variety accepted. They don't have to be exactly the same, but similar enough to look like the same breed and variety. As you asked before, ultimately it comes down to phenotype.

 

[dretd]

Here is what Ive been thinking needs to be done and clarified when it comes to the SOP.

1) "Cream" needs a solid definition
2) Type descriptions should not reference Leghorn as American and UK leghorns differ and only the appropriate description should be applied
3) While hackles and saddles should both be cream due to barring expression differences they may appear to not match and this seems ok.
4) Degree of chestnut allowance should be clear. (This could give further rise to more chestnut birds)
5) Cresting should be present but have a fairly wide interpretation when it comes to color/size (as it appears that crest color and size varies a great deal even in full siblings)

As Walt indicated how you get to the cream color is not a "genetic" certainty when showing for APA so we should focus on what "Pale Butter" means?

1) My personal definition is: Cream is the color that is produced when a chicken has two copies of the inhibitor of gold gene that in its homozygous state will produce a feather that can range between off-white and a pale buttery color, depending on the other genes (barring, autosomal red/chestnut and melanizers) the bird also has in its makeup. If you try to put a color swatch in place you will disenfranchise anyone who things that cream is lighter or darker. Who gets to make that decision? Because if you ask 10 experienced breeders I doubt you will get anything close to a consensus. What do you suggest for how cream should be defined--do you have a definition you think would be accurate and not divisive? Yes I know there is no ring-side genetic test but hopefully a breeder will have hatched enough birds to figure out what cream looks like in their flock. My personal goal is to get a male with maximal expression of the Cream coloration but still be ig/ig which I am determining by looking at the secondaries until I figure out a more accurate method--its all I've got for now. If another breeder doesn't agree with the wing triangle that's fine by me and if a breeder prefers a whiter shade of cream, that's fine by me. I don't want to tell someone else how they should interpret a color since I wouldn't want someone to tell me that my richer cream is wrong. Not sure the solution on how to define a color when there are so many views on what it is? Reminds me of the discussion on the blue vs green egg--colors are very definitely in the eye of the beholder!

2) Unfortunately people read that the bird is based on a (British) Leghorn and since we are in America all they know is the American version and the reality is that the birds that were used were actually of Danish origin. Not sure how to un-ring that bell--folks will skim history and assume things then pass that information on to others. How do we combat that other than to have the original history in there that clearly states that the birds are developed in England and the English Leghorn is different than the American one? I have seen numerous postings on FB taking about trying to get 'the swoop' or to just look at the Light Brown Leghorn as a reference --but if they would bother to read the SOPs of each bird, its clear the descriptions are quite different. IMO the CLB is closest to the Andalusian. When I reference that I pretty much get crickets and so trying to inform doesn't seem to make any headway. What would you suggest?

3) In my flock I think that the whiter a cream the bird has, the less of a mismatch there is. Also I am seeing that birds that are split for cream have more of a mismatch and birds with more chestnut have more of a mismatch. Although a mismatch is not as close to the SOP as a match--most of the colors in one bird or another have incongruities with the SOP sine it is an ideal and there are not perfect matches anywhere--you just do your best as a breeder to get a balance.

4) If you refer back to the British Standard, it says "back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible....coverts grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible". Ours says: Fronts and bows: dark grey, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible, coverts: grey barred, tipped in cream, back: Cream, barred with dark grey, some chestnut permissible" both say cream and grey, some chestnut permissible. We have morphed the coverts from the Brits into wing bows as there is a difference in terminology. The original indicates some chestnut smudges so if you go by that, it would be hard to conclude that a solid chestnut block or bow would be appropriate. Just the fact that the description talks about the cream and grey/darkgrey first then has a comma and has a qualification that says some chestnut is permitted indicates that the Brits thought the default was without chestnut but they would allow 'some'---I like chestnut so I am not trying to eliminate it but rather retain 'some' but avoiding a large color block. I know that this is not ideal according to standard but since I like it it stays in my flock. We are leaving the 'some' up to the breeder but a solid chestnut wing bow would cross over into the 'too much' IMO.

5) I agree there is variation in size--I suspect there may two two genetic variants out there. Plus the males have a small and the females have a medium, so there is a slight incongruity there. In my males with the larger variant (the heads are rounder and there is a thicker fleshy pad behind the comb at hatch), I have serious issues with a wonky comb. In theory I have some chickens who are heterozygous for crest (sires are crested and hens were not) and the one roo with the larger crest and wonky comb sires offspring with the exact same comb/crest combo and the smaller crested one sires straight combs and smaller crests. There clearly seems to be some variance and also my guess is some epistasis going on for sure. I think the crest is actually pretty open to interpretation in the SOP as written. We did remove wording in the female that said the crest was attached at the forefront of the skull--we came to the conclusion that the longer feathers on each side of the comb were not part of the actual crest and there was another unknown gene that influences their size (and maybe influences the size of the larger crests as well). Do you think that the wording of the SOP is inadequate or too strict as it is written?

 

[ChicKat]

SUMMARY 3 - part 3 - and final Wrap up

Start date for the thread is 10/13/14. Between then and now, 6/7/15, a great deal of information has surfaced and the pendulum of opinion has shifted considerably.

Back then people were told that the only ‘to standard’ CL was very light - with somewhat irregular barring and all others were ‘gold legbars’.

To preserve the birds that were purchased and raised as Cream Legbars by their owners, often particularly for the unique beauty of their plumage, only to be told that they weren’t Cream Legbars - lead to investigating if an additional standard was needed to cover these ‘more colorful’ Cream Legbars. So at that time - ‘more colorful’ meant those that did not look monochromatically a hue that photographed as white with some barring.

By delving into what a true gold legbar WAS, it seems that didn’t match the majority of Cream Legbars that most folks are raising (e.g. neither a true gold nor the at that time popular ultra light idea).

When the Legbars attributed to David Applegarth surfaced, and the UK’s 2014 Nationals produced a winner that was distinctly unlike the proposed ultra light look of October 2014 - it seemed very clear to me that many previously excluded Cream Legbars could now be included as Cream Legbars. By including Cream Legbars that resembled the David Applegarth male and female and Cream Legbars that more closely resembled the 2014 UK Nationals winner - ( and why would either of these examples be excluded - since David Applegarth is credited with rescuing the breed, and it is somewhat doubtful that he and Fancy Fowl Magazine would print errors, and since the UK Nationals are the highest Exhibition Poultry Contest in the UK, it seems logical that these examples would show correct Cream Legbars).

It was at that time that the conclusion seemed obvious to me that an added SOP for Cream Legbars that resembled the Applegarth or the 2014 Nationals winner would NOT be needed. No one spoke up at the time to voice an alternative opinion. The thread went dormant for awhile.

Recently someone was told to ‘cull’ their Cream Legbar beacuse it was too colorful, and the investigation of the need for an additional SOP was revisited. Even more information was brought up in the recent reviews. As a result, we all learned quite a lot (I know I did) - we argued a little - (It happens among poultry people from time to time) and a new thread to investigate the need for additional SOP(s) was created.

The roots of considering only a silver-looking CL as the correct CL are probably from these statements by Michael Pease:

With regard to the appearance of a silver crele bird, one may think he referenced this look:


In real life here is an example of Silver chickens - and indeed it could look indistinguishable to cream:

Silver Welbars from ‘Nick’ in Australia.


And here an example of a silver bird from the USA

silver game - winner at 2014 Texas State Fair

The above images of Silver would indeed be indistinguishable from Cream.

Another time that the Cream Legbar is indistinguishable from Silver is when the cockerels are immature - and show only black and white cuckoo barring.

​

The pendulum moved from thinking only the lower right corner of this diagram would be considered a Cream Legbar



to including more of the ‘pale butter’ color that judges in the UK indicated was cream.

Regarding the statement by Pease that the Chick down was like the Gold Legbar, and the later inclusion in the UK SOP that the chick down was like the Silver Legbar -- since Gold and Silver Legbars would have the same genetics dictating the appearance of their plumage as the Gold and Silver Crele Leghorns. (wild-type and barring) - These images show how both could be right and the difference in the chick down is very hard to discern.


One more reference to Silver. The Silver Leghorn is a silver duckwing Leghorn and carries a great deal of black. Could some of the references to looking like a Silver - have meant that the Duckwing pattern would be discernable on a Cream Legbar? Lately I have seen examples of the Cream Legbar where the barring has begun to fly in formation - and it is a very attractive look. Here is a Silver Leghorn Male -- also called a Silver duckwing.

Internet image


Add barring to the above, and you would have the appearance of a Silver Legbar (or Silver Crele Leghorn) - change the resulting chicken's white (silver) to Cream - and you would have a Cream Legbar in appearance if you added the crest.

As asked before - I will ask again - when saying lighter than or darker than - or less colorful than or more colorful than - please put a reference down as to what the 'than' references...does it represent the 2014 UK winning Cockerel? Does it represent the 2013 winning cockerel. IMO it would add more meaning to such conversations.

Thanks again to all who participated in this thread!!! IT was very much a learning experience.

For my flock, I am going to use the Diane Jacky Image here:

especially for the back length and tail angles and the true deep salmon on the female - My birds will probably be more upright forever, combined with the crele patterning here - and the coloration at the middle row showing that the gold has been diluted to the appearance of from 25% to 40% for the targets for my own flock.


in order to breed these birds well we need a clear target. This will be mine.

Meanwhile, you better start hatching now -- so that the chickens you take to the Winter shows will be at just that right age for showing.... And to discuss those with 'more color' -- than, lets say the UK 2014 winning cockerel - jump over to this thread.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-not-breeding-to-the-proposed-cream-standards

happy Trails to you one and all - see you at the Poultry Show!