Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Per this Thread's purpose, ....
"The purpose of this thread is to discuss, evaluate and weigh the pros and cons of the Legbars in the USA that fall outside of the Cream Legbar Club's DRAFT SOP which is the UK SOP as translated to the necessary wording requirements of the APA.

The Cream Legbar Club has sanctioned a committee to investigate what would be needed to accommodate additional Legbars."

My intention on this thread was to add to the discussion, only by find and gathering information from others who are breeding and wanting the more gold color.

To chickat, I don't think we are creating something new. As these birds are already everywhere. I think there is just the question of shall we validate them?

So glad that you brought this up -- because as I have explained in this thread...and several times since...when it was started back in -- was it October of 2014, just like you -- I thought that another variety was needed for the Cream Legbar that we knew and loved. While working on this thread...my view came to the conclusion that another SOP is not needed -- unless one is going to the very dark colorful birds that would truly demonstrate Gold. ---

Here is an example... I have a cock-bird -- who is pretty much the foundation of my flock --







Here are some photos of him over the years.... I keep hoping I will find his replacement -- but as yet -- none have quite measured up. If you were to look at his wing-triangle -- it is not purely barred black and white -- or even cream and white -- it is more saturated. Of course these photos span a number of years, several molts etc. In the bottom most photo - maybe his wing triangle (secondary feathers) was simply gray and white -- in the top most photo, his secondaries are more colorful -- does that mean when he was 18-months old he was a Cream Legbar - and now that he is 3 1/2 he no longer is? I have been told by expert geneticist -- (back when the cream is silver information started ) that he is light enough to be cream. Someone who had him for awhile used him to show an example of a gold rooster...LOL -- I'm more concerned now that he may be split for SILVER - because the sun darkens his hackles -- which is what the sun does to silver -- and people who have true cream, tell me that their birds hackles lighten in the sun. My top hen -- likewise may be a silver instead of a cream. In the days of cream is white -- she got high marks for being a true cream -- but before last years molt...her hackles were quite brown! Sun on silver making it brassy -- or not? Do I have a silver Legbar with a lot of melanizers, and a lot of autosomal red? Do I have a Cream Legbar? Do I have a gold Legbar? He has been called all of the above. LOL

 

[ChicKat]

Ok I think I understand now where the discussion was going.

We have 2 basic things going on.

1) advocating for a wider interpretation of what is Standard for Cream (iq inhibitor expression ranges if im interpreting that correctly) and hackle saddle mismatch being ok.

2) The possiblity of additional Non Standard Cream expressions selectively bred to become their own Legbar

I had thought that the earlier posts were about number 2 but in reality if number 1 is considered and a wider standard is applied then 2 becomes less likely and actually is more defining of a breed than simply non standard Cream which I think is probably the most appropriate approach to allow people breeding the birds to participate in the breed without too much argument. If we too narrowly define the Cream expression with these bird genetics it could be entirely possible that entire lines are morphed away from being cream legbars by an incorrect breeding selection.

Agreed! The cream - is - white (or white looking) has always been a problem for me.

 

[ChicKat]

This was a great post and thank you for putting the time and thought into it. One of the most important things which you said for me was this:

"
Perhaps I have a misunderstanding of how the proposed SOP is being interrupted. I suppose in a new breed or imported breed there will be debates.

The conversation going on here is important as many people are feeling like they have to breed to the white looking cream to breed to the SOP. I also want to acknowledge I think the Champion Rooster is beautiful. It is okay with me (lol) that my rooster isn't the perfect rooster, but I have no desire to breed a "white chicken" with some barring, and a pretty wing. Also, this conversation was never meant to be just about me or my preferences, but rather about all of us out here with Coop full of expensive chickens which are routinely being called mutts due to the lack of "White". I realize it isn't white, but am using that term if Creme can have so many variations. I am happy the conversation is continuing and I want to becareful to not completely kill the SOP discussion which is going on. The FB group I mentioned... (although none of you can see it... lol is another example of people breeding and wanting the "colorful birds" but feeling like they are out of the scope of the SOP.

Thanks! Most people don't want to do the hard work of digging to the bottom of it....and so kind of throw in the towel. That is one reason why I'm so very happy that you are putting a light on these subjects.

Here is a scenario -- what if the misunderstanding wasn't YOU but rather it was the people who thought that CL should be white. in an older edition (the kind that you can download as an ebook for a few bucks) of the APA Standard of Perfection -- it has a really simple definition of Cream -- "Cream - light yellow" -- Judges that I have spoken with at poultry shows within the past years have said that they wanted to see more cream in the birds - and I interpreted that as more cream as opposed to Silver --- and the judges were reading the Club's draft SOP and coming to the conclusion that birds shown were not cream enough.... (of course I suppose if you were a cream = white person -- you could interpret that to mean he wanted to see more white. ) I do recall though, in conversation that Sam Brush - APA judge had mentioned the Cream Light Brown Dutch Bantam


I think that this little bantam cockerel is what is expected to be cream -- and !!!! notice the mismatch of saddle and hackle. Infact - when I asked Sam about that he did say -- when they wrote this (Cream Legbar) standard -- were they dreaming? or was it a real bird---(certainly not in a disrespectful way but in a reflective questioning way... ) when the subject of hackle and saddle matching came up.


This CL placed 3rd of three cockerels that I took to a show in December - and the judge placed him third - among other reasons because he considered him too light and looking faded:

I have to say -- his tail angle was lower -- he looks a bit odd there -- because it was the day after the show -- and he needed his hind end washed - and it was still wet in that picture so his fluff isn't fluffed and his tail is a bit more bedraggled. Go to the Cream Legbar Club's website page and click on "11 Show winners" in the left margin to see the other two that the judge rated higher. (I took 3 cockerels and on pullet - in December...a different judge than the one who said we needed more cream.

 

[chicken pickin]

Wow I have a lot to catch up on here and it looks like there has been some good discussion going on. This thread went pretty active while I was away. I will go back and read all these new posts when I get a chance and then hopefully come back to post, if I have something to add that hasn't already been said that is.

 

[1muttsfan]

I agree that there is a variety of color appearances that can all be labeled Cream. Remembering that Cream is the expression of a gene, we may have to do some work to figure out if some birds actually are Silver instead of Gold, leading to the appearance of Cream. And how would that best be done?

Somehow that sounds confusing.

Personally I like the more gold-colored birds with bright chestnut markings, and yes I know they are not correct for Cream. I just like 'em

My issue with these Legbars is egg color - I was looking for a really nice blue egg, and many lay a more greenish blue egg. Compared to my Arkansas Blues, whose eggs are a lovely clear blue, they really look less blue than green. Fortunately the Standard was written to allow this - although again, my preference is for a BLUE egg.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

Okay, we have determined many people don't have FB, I was just making a joke, to keep the conversation light.

If I understand your point correctly Buffy, you are saying I just have a Creme Legbar which does not meet the SOP? and that I can continue to breed away from the SOP if I like? (which I am doing anyway) I don't have the SOP in front of me, but I think not only his hackle feathers are incorrect, but so is his saddle, and his wings. Which by the time I breed all of that out he will be a more perfect "Creme Legbar".

Let me put it like this... Many of us have colorful imperfect "Creme Legbars" which originated from GFF, and then spread. Many of us like these more colorful birds regardless of their name, and don't wish to breed to the colors of the SOP. So, we are asking if once the "Legbars" are accepted by the APA, can we/should we have another color distinction as many other breeds do. The "Crele" brids obviously breed and reproduce with the same colors because most of the flocks I have seen are those colors, with a few breeders having some success at moving towards "Creme". I fell in love with the breed based on the color of birds I saw and purchased for the color and the blue eggs. I did not fall in love with their name "Creme Legbar". Now if I was the only one, it would be just fine to have a hobby flock and not worry about it. However, all over Ebay, hatcheries, and in backyard flocks everywhere, people are breeding and selling these more colorful birds as Creme Legbars. So, the question is being asked and debated. Should their be another color?

I think I need to clarify my position because people aren't psychic and don't know what I am thinking. So here goes. I have come full circle on the subject of creating an alternative SOP. At first I thought it seemed like a good idea and then with more reading and discussion, I decided it wasn't necessary. There is nothing that prevents you from breeding and selling your chickens as Cream Legbars. In my opinion if they are cream, crested, autosexing and lay blue/green eggs you have a "real" Cream Legbar (and it is Cream, not Creme).

No animal ever meets every aspect of the Standard as there is no such thing as perfection. So you decide what your interpretation is and go from there. Your birds may never win a show. That depends on the judges and ultimately what the people that are involved in Cream Legbars decide is the correct interpretation of the Standard. For Cream Legbars in the US that is still down the road. Years down the road most likely.

Since there are no registries for chickens like there are for dogs, you will never be able to prove the lineage and heritage of your Cream Legbars. Only one Labrador Retriever wins Westminster every year. Thousands? A million? of Labrador Retrievers are bred and sold every year. They would never win at Westminster because many don't come close to meeting their Standard but they are still Labradors!

So I have apparently missed all the name calling and brouhaha and happy that I did! I am sorry that you and others were treated so poorly. I think you should just continue enjoying your Cream Legbars!

 

[KendyF]

Buffy Your position is more clear now thank you. I have one more question which is likely a can of worms. If there is such large of a spectrum of Cream. ... Is it important for the breed to have an acceptable/recognizable color look? As there is already, seemly a need for the word... Crele, Gold, etc. In order to describe what color the Legbar is. I am not being argumentative, just digesting the information received here.
I know this debate will not be settled here, but I appreciate the time and knowledge of those involved in the conversation. I also believe the breed and standards are a work in progress with lessons yet to be learned. I feel the point has been made, heard and validated the more colorful birds are desirable, and I believe the people here care about the breed and want what is best for it. Thanks all for the input and education along the way.

 

[chicken pickin]

Buffy Your position is more clear now thank you. I have one more question which is likely a can of worms. If there is such large of a spectrum of Cream. ... Is it important for the breed to have an acceptable/recognizable color look? As there is already, seemly a need for the word... Crele, Gold, etc. In order to describe what color the Legbar is. I am not being argumentative, just digesting the information received here.
I know this debate will not be settled here, but I appreciate the time and knowledge of those involved in the conversation. I also believe the breed and standards are a work in progress with lessons yet to be learned. I feel the point has been made, heard and validated the more colorful birds are desirable, and I believe the people here care about the breed and want what is best for it. Thanks all for the input and education along the way.

From this thread alone there has been great discussions and walk thrus of the already proposed SOP. We compared lighter colored males (more monocramatic) and more colorful males as we discussed the Standard. During the walk thrus and discussion it seems we learned that the SOP is open to individual interpretation , no right or wrong answer when you are breeding to what you believe to be correct. That said we learned the range of color acceptable on the Cream Legabar is quite great ranging from very little color (almost looking black and white) to being more vibrant colored in the allowed areas (chestnut is allowed in 4 areas on the Cream Legbar, as little or as much as each breeder chooses). Even female crest is open to interpretation may it be dark gray with some cream or mostly cream with some gray even chestnut is permissible. I agree no matter the range of color on the Cream Legbar, a Cream Legbar is a Cream Legbar, some just not to standard.

We have come a long way in learning more about the Cream Legbars colors and this thread has helped many people tremendously (thank you @ChicKat ). Many people might not even know that the cream color on the Cream Legbar is a warm butter color, not white) We want color just in the right areas if that makes sense.

Toward the end of the discussions on this thread many of us have come to agree that it is not really necessary to create a standard for these more colorful birds people are calling "gold" or "crele" because the line between what some consider correct Cream and others consider too colorful is too thin, so much confusion will come from doing such a thing, IMO. Also in my opinion, there isn't enough differences to distinguish to 2 "varieties besides maybe more color in the wing triangle and saddle in the males and rusty colored breasts and yellow hackles in the females. I truly do think people will be confused and all over the place not know what they have.

You can still have a Cream Legbar with color and still breed it toward the standards keeping the color you desire its all about the balance of colors and keeping them in the appropriate areas.

I still haven't gone back to read the other posts, I need to do that lol so hopefully Im not inappropriately posting or repeating. Someone jump in if I was innacurate or if you want to add anything.

 

[caychris]

From this thread alone there has been great discussions and walk thrus of the already proposed SOP. We compared lighter colored males (more monocramatic) and more colorful males as we discussed the Standard. During the walk thrus and discussion it seems we learned that the SOP is open to individual interpretation , no right or wrong answer when you are breeding to what you believe to be correct. That said we learned the range of color acceptable on the Cream Legabar is quite great ranging from very little color (almost looking black and white) to being more vibrant colored in the allowed areas (chestnut is allowed in 4 areas on the Cream Legbar, as little or as much as each breeder chooses). Even female crest is open to interpretation may it be dark gray with some cream or mostly cream with some gray even chestnut is permissible. I agree no matter the range of color on the Cream Legbar, a Cream Legbar is a Cream Legbar, some just not to standard.

We have come a long way in learning more about the Cream Legbars colors and this thread has helped many people tremendously (thank you @ChicKat ). Many people might not even know that the cream color on the Cream Legbar is a warm butter color, not white) We want color just in the right areas if that makes sense.

Toward the end of the discussions on this thread many of us have come to agree that it is not really necessary to create a standard for these more colorful birds people are calling "gold" or "crele" because the line between what some consider correct Cream and others consider too colorful is too thin, so much confusion will come from doing such a thing, IMO. Also in my opinion, there isn't enough differences to distinguish to 2 "varieties besides maybe color in the wing triangle and saddle in the males and rusty colored breasts and yellow hackles in the females. I truly do think people will be confused and all over the place not know what they have.

You can still have a Cream Legbar with color and still breed it toward the standards keeping the color you desire its all about the balance of colors and keeping them in the appropriate areas.

I still haven't gone back to read the other posts, I need to do that lol so hopefully Im not inappropriately posting or repeating. Someone jump in if I was innacurate or if you want to add anything.

Agreed

This chicken may be one of the most geneticly difficult breeds to flesh out a standard for because of how its many features are arrived at. There seems to be some difficulty from pure looks in determining which combinations of genes are producing it and being able to pair with a complinetary bird to get the right results. Barring adds more issues and the chestnut expression even more. This bird seems to push the boundaries for all painting issues. And that is without trying to interpret what is the correct color. (Without an OAC number to match to

)

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I think the legbar is going through what the leghorns went through. There was at one time just a basic brown leghorn but people started breeding lighter females and darker males based on wording and how theu interpreted it. Pretty soon they had a split because there was such a variance in color of the two which caused light brown and dark brown. Legbars seem the same way in a sense- good colored females can have poor colored males and vice-versa.