Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[gootziecat]

I have looked at the Legbars on several occasions, considering them as a possible next breed to try. Each time, I became more and more disenchanted with the choir with their breeding and preaching of the cream monochromatic color. Personally, I feel it is doing the breed a great disservice to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[ChicKat]

I have looked at the Legbars on several occasions, considering them as a possible next breed to try. Each time, I became more and more disenchanted with the choir with their breeding and preaching of the cream monochromatic color. Personally, I feel it is doing the breed a great disservice to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

IMO the monochromatic CL is less correct. Do you consider the one that won in the UK and the example male attributed to David Applegarth to be monochromatic? I'm curious, because I think that they are the more correct approach. :O)

 

[ChicKat]

Here is a really interesting article from the fly-tying community.

http://flyanglersonline.com/flytying/cree.php

Talking about managing expectations of the plumage for males - there's a statistic of 1/250,000 for correct plumage (for cree - which may or may not have the same frequency as Cream Legbar -- )

Here is a quote from the author:

"So far we have produced over 30 Crees in two years and we only produce about 2,000 birds per year. This sort of blows the 1 in 250,000 theory." The author is Dennis Conrad, and I reference this photo from the above article for your perusal


When I look at this male - because of his tail feathers, I would make a guess that he doesn't carry two copies of the barring gene, however I would suggest that the saddle and hackle feathers show cream -- and of course the bright sunlight on the photo distorts the colors -- but I thought the article may be of interest to Cream Legbar breeders.

WE seem to expect success 100% of the time with our cockerels - and here is a pro who gets 30 in 2-years so that would be (since they raise 2,000 birds per year) 30/4,000 + -.

So if we focus on type, blue eggs, high productivity, temperament, straight combs, neat crests, health, fecundity, fertility etc. -- .0075% (yes that comes to point zero, zero seven five percent -- right ? (30 divided by four-thousand) ) So, .0075% of our Cream Legbars will have the perfect color. Meanwhile we just strive to get our best IMO.

 

[gootziecat]

First, let me say I am flattered that you give a rat's behind what I think. Thank you. Sorry to say, I have not seen a picture of David Applegarths bird, as I stopped following the Legbar threads, etc. I will say, based on what pleases my eye and what keeps cropping up in flocks, color should be there. I'm running into the same problem with the Isbars. Like the Legbars, there is not a large gene pool and they haven't been in this country long enough for people to get their panties in a wad over the SOP. Second, as already mentioned, the gene pool is small. And third, for petes sake, look at the background breeds. Part of what makes the breed what it is shouldn't be ignored, be it Legbars or Isbars.

 

[ChicKat]

Good - glad that you brought up two topics near and dear to my heart!!! ;O)

Here is a pict. of this year's UK winners in the big poultry shows:







And David Applegarth is the person who probably 'rescued' the Cream Legbar from extinction. Here is a picture from Fancy Fowl magazine:




So although the hens look a bit faded to my eye--- I think that the males are non-mono-chromatic.

Isbars--- I love my Isbars. I love the older type with the super dark eyes--- and I think I'm in for red earlobes....what colors should the legs be? Match the plumage? black legs on black Isbars, Slate legs on blue Isbars -- light slate or Ivory on Splash Isbars..... What if someone decided the Isbar Standard should have white earlobes?? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

 

[ChicKat]

So I was wondering today if the average - random previously rejected USA Cream Legbars are THAT far from David Applegarth photo:


ETA - It is ironic that someone from UK had told the USA a couple of years ago that all our CLs here were throw aways and we should get rid of them all and start from scratch. Lots in the USA laughed it off - and some took the advice to heart. I think that the genetics are here in the USA to get quality CLs - it will just take a few years...and color may be the least area that needs to be worked on.

 

[chicken pickin]

So I was wondering today if the average - random previously rejected USA Cream Legbars are THAT far from David Applegarth photo:

I do not think they are far off at all, the male on the right is very close to what we are seeing on the left. I also think that both these males can fit in to the SOP (depending on the persons interpretation of the SOP). I do personally think that the amount of chestnut showing on the shoulders is a tad too much. The SOP states that the shoulders of the males should be cream barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible. When I look at these males the chestnut does, to me, seem to take over and we don't see the cream and dark graying barring the way I understand the SOP.

I do however think we need to give a little more allowance on color when viewing others birds and maybe help others understand what amounts might be in the range of appropriate.

Below is just my own personal preference and personal thoughts on what the SOP calls for.
The first 4 pics below are 4 different males from my flock and are what I feel is somewhat of what the SOP is calling for (again personal thought on this) but its more of what I like to see. The last pic was my original male and to me had too much color and was eventually culled (mostly for a bad attitude, but also because I prefer to have less chestnut).

 

[chicken pickin]

This male below is a male from my flock, he was very recently culled due to having curled toes

But to me he had great wing color and barring, this is what I think I want to aim for in future males with in my flock. Im not positive though so thoughts are appreciated, I know my other males have more white in the triangles but when I read the SOP I feel maybe this male is a little more on track.

 

[ChicKat]

This male below is a male from my flock, he was very recently culled due to having curled toes

But to me he had great wing color and barring, this is what I think I want to aim for in future males with in my flock. Im not positive though so thoughts are appreciated, I know my other males have more white in the triangles but when I read the SOP I feel maybe this male is a little more on track.

cp - I think that your chickens are SUPERB. I agree that the chestnut shoulders may be too much on the sample males I put up -- but we diverge - because for my taste - the ones you prefer are too little. But that's my taste...and both are in the SOP -- I think maybe if their chestnut was proportionate to the shoulders of a red-winged black bird - I would think that is perfect for me. ;O) = somehow I think I read some place or other that that red-shoulder is the indication of a male in some breeds.... Don't know where I got that.

I think that your wing triangle in the last photo is probably exemplary of the SOP --

 

[GaryDean26]

I have looked at the Legbars on several occasions, considering them as a possible next breed to try. Each time, I became more and more disenchanted with the choir with their breeding and preaching of the cream monochromatic color. Personally, I feel it is doing the breed a great disservice to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

There are lot so new people working with Cream Legbars (starting in the UK and spreading from there). The color of the Cream Legbar is unique in the chickens world. I have seen a Cream Crele Leghorn photo from the netherlands, but there really isn't a common knowledge in the poultry world of how to distinguish a proper colored Cream Legbar from an incorrectly colored cream Legbar. I know there are people in the CLB community that hate looking at other breeds, but it might be a good idea to look at the Dutch Bantam. It comes in both the Light brown and the Cream Light Brown. Learning the difference in between those two varieties in that breed and what makes a refined exhibition color and what is considered poor hatchery quality color in that breed will help understand what details to pay attention for good color in the Cream Legbar. I am not the color expert (what would be BlackBirds13, we miss her), but my understanding is that the Dutch Bantam breeders work for the darkest richest Cream possible for exhibition. Light washed out birds they referred to as dead straw and are considered culls with no value for breeding. The Cream Legbar breeding fad however have been selecting for the lightest colored birds possible. The color is coming out faded when it should be a richer color for the most attractive color for exhibition quality birds. Another place to look would be the wild type varieties (any breed would work, but comparison look at a light brown leghorn). White on the tail feathers or wing feathers in a wild type bird likewise would be a cull with no value as a breeder, but if you look at the cockerels in the UK many of them have white on their wings and tails as shown by the lack of barring on the primary feathers. My mentor (in the UK) had her birds criticized by the show circles near her. She didn't show birds however and preferred to read the SOP and follow it than to follow what the young fad exhibitors in the UK that only had been working with the breed for half as many years as she had were saying. This fad was black and white looking birds. My mentor on the other hand may a great effort to ensure that her birds had the darkest cream she could get (yes this is still an almost silver looking bird, but her creams were distinguishable from silvers as a result of her breeding efforts. In the long run of thinks breeding to fads does a greater disservice to a breed than breeding to the Standard. I agree that type breeding for color while neglecting every other aspect of the bird is a good way to ruin a breed. Unfortunately some people are putting greater value on breeding "Cream" to the n-th degree than on following sound breeding practices that focus on vigor, utilities, and type. It they are selecting the lightest colored bird in there flock even if it is showing ill-effects of inbreeding and poor type, then yes they ARE throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It they are building strong productive flocks while weeding out colors that don't follow the breed standard, then they are doing things right.