Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Oh yes I completely agree 100%. I would never say a bird was not a Cream Legbar if it has a little more color showing through or not as how the standard writes. They are all Cream Legbars. And of course they are gold based and yes must have, show, or carry some degree of gold. I do not think a muted gray and white Cream Legbar is correct by far, they need to have a little gold showing through to be able to achieve the beautiful cream we do see on some of the CL out there. It was just my understanding that the triangle should be free of color, I have seen it again and again, post after post and I am guilty of also posting that wing triangles should be free of color because it is something I thought people were agreeing upon. I suppose either no color or some color can be allowed in the wing triangle, though I personally will breed toward a gray barred, colorless wing triangle as that is my preference.

ETA - as I understand it too - the triangle should only be barred gray - but IMO the difference in imperfect color when it is so close is the same degree of difference as imperfect comb - 5 points versus 6 points. It could be that the perfect bird will never materialize.

Let's try that again…I'm not saying the rooster is not the result of a Cream Legbar breeding program. However, I am suggesting that he might have been the result of parents that were not double for cream and thus he exhibits gold in his wing triangle, possibly an indication that he is single, not double for cream. That is the conversation. It was not an assertion that the rooster is a hybrid or from a mix of any sort.

Yes, the Cream Legbars are intended to be a double gold based breed. The rather elusive beauty of the Cream Legbars in particular, is obtaining a double dose of dilute, or cream, which acts to modify the appearance of the gold; all of the gold, not just some of the gold, is the way I understand it.

Thanks so much for these views.... these ideas really really need to be explored.

Here's the other side of the coin. If the gold dilution gene ig is recessive - as I understand recessive genetics, then the appearance would be the same as if there were two non-recessives. So a Legbar with one recessive would appear identical to a Legbar with no recessives. -- right? Correct me if there is information that I have missed. -- Now if I go to the grid and look at a gold and barred bird -- the wing triangle there is gold (aka brown) or should I say brown (aka gold) --

So - just for placement -- and add white stripes for the bars -- the degree of brown aka gold showing up in the wing triangle of a Legbar that had only one recessive gene would appear the same as the one that had no recessives as I understand the way recessives genes work.

ETA - The Applegarth bird is not perfection - not intending to imply that, but I don't think it is gold either - unless, the recessive is non-recessive or partially recessive. IMO it is an expression or weakness of the cream genetics of that particular bird.

 

[sol2go]

ETA - as I understand it too - the triangle should only be barred gray - but IMO the difference in imperfect color when it is so close is the same degree of difference as imperfect comb - 5 points versus 6 points. It could be that the perfect bird will never materialize.
Thanks so much for these views.... these ideas really really need to be explored.

Here's the other side of the coin. If the gold dilution gene ig is recessive - as I understand recessive genetics, then the appearance would be the same as if there were two non-recessives. So a Legbar with one recessive would appear identical to a Legbar with no recessives. -- right? Correct me if there is information that I have missed. -- Now if I go to the grid and look at a gold and barred bird -- the wing triangle there is gold (aka brown) or should I say brown (aka gold) --

So - just for placement -- and add white stripes for the bars -- the degree of brown aka gold showing up in the wing triangle of a Legbar that had only one recessive gene would appear the same as the one that had no recessives as I understand the way recessives genes work.

ETA - The Applegarth bird is not perfection - not intending to imply that, but I don't think it is gold either - unless, the recessive is non-recessive or partially recessive. IMO it is an expression or weakness of the cream genetics of that particular bird.

addressing the recessive component -

the main example I can suggest is recessive white:
one dose of recessive white doesn't cover up the other color genetics, it takes two doses of recessive white to paint over all of the other colors and patterns. In fact, you won't know recessive white is hiding out unless you have two doses, because it does not have an incomplete effect - it's all or nothing (homozygous vs heterozygous or none)

Dominant white is yet a different example of white paint - in a simplistic comparison, while two doses of dominant white will produce a white bird much as two doses of recessive will, it only takes one dose of dominant white to influence what is being expressed.

Again, I know there are nuances to everything, but that is the cleanest comparison I can think of.

 

[sol2go]

I'd like to add, the nuances of what is or isn't cream, is part of why I think this thread is important.
Not to dissect the words of the SOP or haggle over pictures, but to spend some time breeding colorful stock, as a counterpoint to also working on the less colorful cream stock. I hold fast to the idea that time is our friend in this program. It takes time to set color and pattern as well as to shake out whatever else is in the mix.

In time, we are going to see what breeders can reliably achieve and what the common threads are between the various lines. Trends, whether they are personal preferences in the way breeders select their breeding pairs, or the way the genetics repeatedly reveal themselves, will help to develop the nuances of what "is" and "isn't".

 

[ChicKat]

sol2go
really good example that all Cream Legbar people should be familiar with on recessive white! --

When I look at the pictures of 1947 London Dairy Show -- Cream Legbars as they were 'introduced' -- I think that your point about the effect that time will have on the breed is very prophetic.

 

[dretd]

Thanks Chickat for moving the thread along. I think that its helpful for me to see what other people think about their chicken colors and learn how they interpret the SOP; I started with a limited number (5) CLBs sourced from 3 breeders so what I see in my flock is limited to the building blocks that I was given to start with.

For me, I am seeing birds that are sorted into 2 main categories: Obviously Cream and very richly colored that I have assumed are Ig/ig birds. I think for me, those really colorful birds are more richly colored than the SOP calls for and would fit really well into an alternative SOP. There are a few in-betweeners who I think are Ig/ig, but because they are not as black, not as red, or start with a paler gold color (or all 3) they could be classified as phenotypic cream but genetic gold--which leaves me with a problem in future generations because with that on-board with breeding it will make it harder for me to have a consistent look to the birds I hatch out.

I haven't had much time this week to post, but I thought I would start with a few pictures of pullets just to share my thoughts on what looks to match the SOP and what I think is too colorful for the SOP. This is my opinion only, of course.

Here is a pair of pullets from my September hatch 'Alternative; on the left and Cream on the right:



and another side by side set with the Alternative in the back/left and a different less melanized Cream in the front/right:


I think for me, I am seeing that there are 3 main differences between the two colors that I see:
1) Hackles gold/cream: Really golden hackles in the Alternative girl when compared to the Cream version. Its most apparent when you get them in the same lighting and right next to each other. For me there is not a question that they are different. They are full sisters so it helps that they are as similar genetically as I can get.
2 ) Breast chestnut/salmon: The color of the breast appears to be a chestnut color in the Alternative girl and a dark salmon in both the cream girls although maxed out in the first melanized one. I do have have a lighter salmon version from a different pairing I will try to post if I can dig it out.
3) Body brownish/greyish: The body of the Alternative girl is a browner color than the Cream girl, although neither would I consider grey. The Alternative I would describe as a raw umber-taupe and the Cream a grey-taupe.

OK--got the lighter salmon. The hen on the left has a lighter salmon breast. For contrast the one on the right is what I believe to be an Alternative girl with a chestnut colored breast. Her hackles started out more golden colored but have faded over time and were far less golden than her Alt cousin I pictured above. Her breast is still chestnut. I think she is one that probably starts out with a paler gold ground color.



I also have a hen that I was on the fence on: Clara immediately below. She was always far less golden in the hackles and has what I though was a rich buttery color. She is from a different breeder than Beatrix, who is pictured at the bottom below Clara and is the mother to the pullet on the right in the picture with the rooster in the photo above and who has a closeup of her hackles. I think that Clara would be seen as a rich Cream if I were to show her yet when I breed her to a male who is the father of the above pictured rooster (and who looks the same), she produced a girl who looks similar to the Alternative girl in the first photos and thus she must not be genetically Cream but rather phenotypically passes for Cream. She is still by far my favorite Cream Legbar and I hope to get lots of babies from her this year.


Below, Beatrix is off color-wise and is a bit small and lacks a crest (her ear is mostly white but is folded so it looks solid pink) but cranks out lots and lots of eggs and she is not very melanized so the hackles of her offspring are less black and more cream which I really like. So not ideal but she still had value to start my program. Her above-pictured daughter Green Band is also a dynamite layer (first to start in her cohort and very frequent) and is very friendly. I am retiring Beatrix to my layer flock and am going to carry on with her daughter since she captured the best parts of her mom and doesn't have her obvious type flaws.



SO there you have an example of what I think of as fitting the Alternative Legbar, an example of what I think of as Cream Legbar and one that I think is phenotypic Cream but will cause issues for me in the future as she appears to be a genetic non-ig/ig girl; my desire is to have a flock that has stable genetics and having hens that pass for cream but throw alternatives will make my job much harder.

I do think that the contrast between the Alternative and the Cream girls is obvious enough that an Alternative Legbar is justified. IMO, if all I had to look at was Clara vs the ig/ig Legbars, then I would totally understand not wanting/needing to split off an Alternative because they are pretty close in coloration. So I think a lot of this discussion falls back to what everyone sees when they look in their own backyard.

This discussion is also good because I find it very valuable to see pictures of what other people have and how they are evaluating their own birds. I would love to see pictures of other possible candidates for 'Alternative' and why!

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks dretd,

really superb pictures. Good documentation and interesting evaluations. We certainly will need a lot of photos collected - so everyone reading -- please post here !!!

 

[Daloorashens]

Okay, I just acquired a trio and am considering if the roo is a keeper (will post pics).. The hens seem a little small and narrow-hipped but I have another hen from a different breeder that I held onto last year that has better type & a better crest. Thinking I might hatch as many chicks as I can this year, keep the best hens (selecting for chick down and then type) and if needed, get a new roo... Thoughts?

There is a local person selling some cock chicks that look like this:





Thoughts?

I like that these chicks have good headspots, but perhaps the stripe down its back is too dark?

TIA!

Clearly I need to post pics of them all =)

 

[ChicKat]

Okay, I just acquired a trio and am considering if the roo is a keeper (will post pics).. The hens seem a little small and narrow-hipped but I have another hen from a different breeder that I held onto last year that has better type & a better crest. Thinking I might hatch as many chicks as I can this year, keep the best hens (selecting for chick down and then type) and if needed, get a new roo... Thoughts?

There is a local person selling some cock chicks that look like this:





Thoughts?

I like that these chicks have good headspots, but perhaps the stripe down its back is too dark?

TIA!

Clearly I need to post pics of them all =)

In the above plate from a genetics journal from Punnett's day - article by Punnett and actual photos of chick pelts, you can see that the stripes are evident on the male chicks. Top two and center chick. Pease, in writing said that the Cream Legbar chick down should look like the chick down of the gold legbar - (which these chicks are)--- In the PCGB standard they say the chick down should be like silver legbar -- gets a bit confusing. In a Pease article a chick is pictured where the male lacks chipmunk stripe.

Autosexing is the most important CL trait - followed by blue eggs and a crest -- in surveys we took a few years back. It could be that the opinions have shifted - but I doubt it. Autosexing is based on the combination of wild type (chipmunk stripes - having e+ on the E-Locus genetically) and barring genes -- (head splotch on male chicks B/B double factor barring on the male - the female can only carry 1 barring gene) ==

I am wondering now a days if the neat barring patterns have a relation to the chipmunk stripes and the more diffused and irregular adult barring would be indicated by the lack of dorsal stripe diffused over the back of the male chick. This is my theory - and would take lots of tracking - but it has occurred to me.

Cream Legbar chicks go through so many changes as they go from chick to adult -- I would hold on to the chick as long as I could to see what the adult will be like. HTH

ETA - the thigh and underbelly of that chick are the color that I consider to be cream - the wings appear to be coming in a very light gray -- It could be that rather than discard this chick it grows to be your most correct.

 

[dretd]

Okay, I just acquired a trio and am considering if the roo is a keeper (will post pics).. The hens seem a little small and narrow-hipped but I have another hen from a different breeder that I held onto last year that has better type & a better crest. Thinking I might hatch as many chicks as I can this year, keep the best hens (selecting for chick down and then type) and if needed, get a new roo... Thoughts?

There is a local person selling some cock chicks that look like this:





Thoughts?

I like that these chicks have good headspots, but perhaps the stripe down its back is too dark?

TIA!

Clearly I need to post pics of them all =)

Hi Daloorashens!

You may want to repost in the regular SOP thread, this one was started to gauge the interest level in adding a second more colorful SOP. The chick down will be identical, but there are more people active on the other thread.

I think your boys look really nice. Very clearly boys which is what you want.

The plate that Chickat posted is an awesome reference and if you look there is a male in the upper right that is paler than the others. That plate was published before the Cream Legbars were 'a thing' and there has been selective breeding since then to make the autosexing more clear among other things. I do recall reading in one of Punnett's papers that there appeared to be two types of male chick down--a light phase that was recessive and a darker one that was dominant.

I hatched out two males from Blackbirds13's eggs that were both this lighter-type down--much like your boys. All but one of their male offspring I have hatched were the more grey-colored down I was used to seeing which supports that the lighter downs are recessive . All were easily sexable as males. Males, no matter if they are light or dark, should have a very blurry back pattern and the chipmunk stripes should blend into the darker stripe and not be highlighted like they are in the females.

Rinda had noted that some of the British breeders feel that if the male down is cinnamon colored, the males were deemed to have too much chestnut.

The downs description in the British Poultry Standards (the APA has no place for downs so it is not in the American draft SOP at this time although I personally think it would be really smart to add it in as a note since this is an autosexing breed and one of our differentiators from accepted breeds):
Down, Female (Silver): Silver Grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with the ground color--the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump, the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow or discontinuous stripe should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background. Male: The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may be described as pale silvery-slaty.

I find it very interesting that there is a description for a light head spot in the female, but the males don't say there is a head spot or specify that it is more distinct than the females.

There is really very little difference between the description in the gold and silver downs, but if we wrote an American version I think we would combine the two and add some wiggle words like saying there can be a light head spot in the females instead of the head spot should be visible. My guess is that the females with the distinct head spots have better barring which may translate to a better quality grey body color which does tend towards taupe in most birds I have seen.

As for the hens seeming narrow-hipped. I am not entirely sure what you mean by this? Are you saying the body tapers to a narrow back end and they seem too narrow overall, or when you feel the distance between the pelvic bones they seem too narrow to produce a large egg? Are these adults or chicks you are talking about? Fyi--some of my smaller hens lay my larger eggs.

I once wondered what the color slate is--back in the day all chalk boards were made of slate so everyone knew what that meant; I found this photo of slate monoliths from a quarry/slate yard in Wales:

They seem to vary from light to dark grey including some brownish-hued tones I would describe as taupe. Not sure abut the description 'silvery'--in heraldry silver is depicted as white and in real life its a metal that can be very bright to a tarnished yellowed or dark grey color. I imagine they are referring to the plain bright greyish shiny metal but who knows for sure?

Oh--Here is one set of my boys--the lighter downed one is more in the middle and obvious. All of the boys have a darker stripe on the back but the brighter chipmunk stripes are blurred and indistinct.


Hope this is useful information!

 

[ChicKat]

Okay, I just acquired a trio and am considering if the roo is a keeper (will post pics).. The hens seem a little small and narrow-hipped but I have another hen from a different breeder that I held onto last year that has better type & a better crest. Thinking I might hatch as many chicks as I can this year, keep the best hens (selecting for chick down and then type) and if needed, get a new roo... Thoughts?

There is a local person selling some cock chicks that look like this:





Thoughts?

I like that these chicks have good headspots, but perhaps the stripe down its back is too dark?

TIA!

Clearly I need to post pics of them all =)

Would love to see an update on your chick! He looks so pretty. I have one that hatched a week ago -- so just about the age of this guy - with the same coloration -- and I'm curious! :O)