Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[dretd]

Crest size is something we will always battle I am sure. At the show this weekend, the judge said he expected a larger crest. Looking at the old Schilling picture in the B&W standard of white silkies which calls for a medium well rounded crest, that picture looks like what I imagine the judges are expecting when we say small crest. I have some chicks that I know will have larger crests just because their crest size at hatch was silkie like but I like the smaller tassel.

I like the smaller on the boys for sure--the larger the crest, the wonkier the comb. The hard part is the SOP draft calls for medium crests on the ladies but small crests on the boys. I have one roo that has a large crest (or large for a CLB--- it probably is medium when you compare it to APA crested breeds) and he throws girls with large crests. I have another male with a much better comb and small crest and most of his girls have smaller crests. There must be several crest variants out there. Either the crest gene itself varies, or there are companion genes that modify the expression of the crest gene through epistasis or both. Sort of like noses in people--we all have them but some folks have dainty noses and some have large, robust noses

I remember Rinda saying the judge asked her (or was surprised?) about a lack of mention regarding vaulted skulls and how we don't have it in our SOP. Personally I think we need to put it in the SOP that the vaulted skull is a defect to make sure we set our crest apart from the breeds the judges are familiar with. Of course I also think we need a very clear down descriptions to give guidance for autosexing characteristics, but who knows if it will ever come to pass.

On the ones that you think are Silkie like--do you think they have a vaulted skull or just a large crest? So far on my larger crested ones I don't feel a boney bump like a vault, but the tissue where the crest will come in certainly is thickened. The smaller crested ones it seems like I can't tell if they really are going to be crested until they starting getting more feathers in around 3 weeks or so.

 

[ChicKat]

Crest size is something we will always battle I am sure. At the show this weekend, the judge said he expected a larger crest. Looking at the old Schilling picture in the B&W standard of white silkies which calls for a medium well rounded crest, that picture looks like what I imagine the judges are expecting when we say small crest. I have some chicks that I know will have larger crests just because their crest size at hatch was silkie like but I like the smaller tassel.

Agreeing with dretd that vaulted skulls is an undesirable trait! Now of course you need to check for vaulted and you need to send us photos.....

 

[GaryDean26]

...Of course I also think we need a very clear down descriptions to give guidance for autosexing characteristics, but who knows if it will ever come to pass.

I still go back to the down description in the UK standard from time to time, but keep seeing so much variation when people post chick photos, that I don't favor listing a certain down color any time soon. Guildlines on the head spots on the cockerel such as a concetrated spot being better than a spread out one or something like that and guide lines on the dorsal strips of the pullet and eye line being on the pullet but not of the cockerel etc. might be helpful. I also think that continuing to do autosexing contests at poultry shows would be good. There are so many clubs doing egg contests now (at least in our area) that another egg contest doesn't attract as much attention as they used to. The Day old chicks how ever continue to attract lots of people and having someone read the UK description (or a proposed APA description) and pick out the chicks that are the best marked really help you focus on improvments in that area of the breed.

 

[ChicKat]

I still go back to the down description in the UK standard from time to time, but keep seeing so much variation when people post chick photos, that I don't favor listing a certain down color any time soon. Guildlines on the head spots on the cockerel such as a concetrated spot being better than a spread out one or something like that and guide lines on the dorsal strips of the pullet and eye line being on the pullet but not of the cockerel etc. might be helpful. I also think that continuing to do autosexing contests at poultry shows would be good. There are so many clubs doing egg contests now (at least in our area) that another egg contest doesn't attract as much attention as they used to. The Day old chicks how ever continue to attract lots of people and having someone read the UK description (or a proposed APA description) and pick out the chicks that are the best marked really help you focus on improvments in that area of the breed.

ahh chicks at a show. hmmm

People who came and got day old chicks from me - (and it was a cold day, dreary and a deluge of rain)-- had a way to power a brooder heater with a gizmo that plugged into the cigarette lighter of their vehicle...so perhaps young chicks could be kept warm enough at a show---- however -- they would be exposed to everything at the show.....

Which is a segway, BTW, to say -- there will be a blurb about showing chickens and possibly avoiding bringing anything home to your other chickens in the upcoming Cream Legbar Club's newsletter -- target mid-April.
Can y'all believe that the first quarter of 2015 is already overwith....

 

[sol2go]

Crest size is something we will always battle I am sure. At the show this weekend, the judge said he expected a larger crest. Looking at the old Schilling picture in the B&W standard of white silkies which calls for a medium well rounded crest, that picture looks like what I imagine the judges are expecting when we say small crest. I have some chicks that I know will have larger crests just because their crest size at hatch was silkie like but I like the smaller tassel.

On the crest topic -
has anyone else noticed the absence of dark crests on roosters? Any ideas why that is?
While hens exhibit the "typical" cream and grey crests, as well a range of dark (melanized?) crests, I am not seeing those same dark colors with the roosters. My flock ranges between "white" (cream) to buttery to caramel, but never black or even heavily barred in that location. Sometimes it starts out with dark barring close to the comb, but that doesn't extend very far along the individual feathers.


Likewise the hen's hackle feathers have more variation than the roosters with regards to dark colors/heavy barring.

I recall various discussions of the effect of double barring and cream on the overall appearance of roosters vs hens, not sure how that factors in to the crest coloration in particular.

 

[ChicKat]

On the crest topic -
has anyone else noticed the absence of dark crests on roosters? Any ideas why that is?
While hens exhibit the "typical" cream and grey crests, as well a range of dark (melanized?) crests, I am not seeing those same dark colors with the roosters. My flock ranges between "white" (cream) to buttery to caramel, but never black or even heavily barred in that location. Sometimes it starts out with dark barring close to the comb, but that doesn't extend very far along the individual feathers.


Likewise the hen's hackle feathers have more variation than the roosters with regards to dark colors/heavy barring.

I recall various discussions of the effect of double barring and cream on the overall appearance of roosters vs hens, not sure how that factors in to the crest coloration in particular.

I think that you have named the cause - and that would be double barring gene on the male promotes the 'white' stripe in the neck and crest feathering. hmmmm good food for thought.

 

[GaryDean26]

ahh chicks at a show. hmmm

People who came and got day old chicks from me - (and it was a cold day, dreary and a deluge of rain)-- had a way to power a brooder heater with a gizmo that plugged into the cigarette lighter of their vehicle...so perhaps young chicks could be kept warm enough at a show---- however -- they would be exposed to everything at the show.....

Which is a segway, BTW, to say -- there will be a blurb about showing chickens and possibly avoiding bringing anything home to your other chickens in the upcoming Cream Legbar Club's newsletter -- target mid-April.
Can y'all believe that the first quarter of 2015 is already overwith....

I haven't been to a lot of shows but most that I have been to have an area where people sell everything from day old chickens up to mature stock. The only reason some people go to shows is to shop for stock to purchase and I know of several Cream Legbar Breeders that got stock in the form of chicks from poultry shows.

The chick contests are NOT for purchase but I bring up the sales area because those chicks are exposed to everything at a show too. The chick contests are only for education. The shows that we have had CLB chick contests in the past were NOT a petting zoo. People could look at the chicks with their eyes, but not their hands. The only people that handled the chicks were the people that brought them.

Heat for the chicks has always worked out at the show. Last year the heat pack for the chicks wasn't enough to keep the newborns worm in the early morning so a heat lamp was borrowed from a club member that had one to spare from the supplies that she brought for chicks she had set up for sale in the vendor's area. The heat pack however was all the chicks needed after the first 90 minutes when the sun came up and the poultry barn heated up. So...yes there was a bit of a learning curve but there is in all things. The chicks go home with the person that brought them unless the breeder makes other arrangements on their own.

There are already chicks at the shows and already people bringing home every nasty cough, sniffle, and droopy eye that the caged birds on exhibit have brought with them. Sound biosecurity is important but to say that we should not have cream legbar autosexing chick contests at show when some breeder already are bringing or obtaining CLB chick to/at these very same shows seems like a missed opportunity to me.

Yep...one quarter of the year is already gone. This is what I have been doing with all my free time this year.



I will be doing the HITS Marble Falls Triathlon in three weeks. It is a 1.2 mile swim, 56 mile bike, and 13.1 mile run. This will be my debut as a triathlete.

 

[KPenley]

Best wishes with your triathlon Mr. C! A friend of ours finished his second Ironman a couple of months ago. All of those races are certainly a real accomplishment in endurance and training!

 

[ChicKat]

FWIW - here is my vision of 'true cream'




IMO it is closest to OAC900, maybe a tad lighter. Remember how the SOP says 'tipped with Cream'? -- I read someplace that barred birds always have their feathers tipped with the dark color.
This is from the saddles of a pelt of 'Heart' who was one of the first roosters that I ever hatched from 'Robin' & 'Ice'. The background white is an envelope of course for comparison....

In a lot of his youth he had a floppy comb, then it got upright. He fathered a few chicks - including a line breeding experiment to 'Robin'. I never considered him for a breeder because his comb was set at a diagonal across his forehead. He was kind of messily feathered - But the pelt doesn't look too bad. and he got meaner than sin. Thus far his offspring don't seem particularly flighty or mean and the daughter lays very very very big and saturated eggs - every other day-- then she lays a normal pullet sized egg on the other day-- weird isn't it? She is the one that had feathered shanks, but she is a very pretty pullet...wouldn't you know? -- so I just put a couple of her eggs in the incubator to see if any of the chicks with her brother will have feathered shanks. If he has a recessive feather shank gene - then some should -- if none do -- he may have gotten the non-feathered shank gene from both Robin and Heart...if feathered shank genes are the cause of her feathers. TBD

Another reason that he wouldn't be a good flock sire is because he had the squirreliest of squirrel tails -- infact it probably was an acute angle -- and once he got mean his nick-name became Mr. Ugly. He got the name 'Heart' because his forehead had the little white splotch in the shape of a heart. He is one of the two malechicks on the Tri-Fold Brochure in the Club house titled 'The ABCs of Cream Legbars' His brother 'Arrow' - you guessed it - had the white splotch shaped like a forward pointing arrow. -- he was unfortunately sold - all back in 2012....when raccoons devastated my chickens.

ETA aww look I found the picture of the first baby Cream Legbar cockerels that I had hatched:


2012

That hatch had 4 females and these two males.

 

[ChicKat]

FWIW - to my eye, this is salmon:


yum



I have one or two salmo fans and a couple of yolk fans -- contact me if you want one..........while they last.