Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[Junibutt]

I think the split (if there is going to be one) will happen if folks with lighter color birds will continue to insult, demean and reject folks with more colorful birds with phrases like:

"Your birds are not cream, they are gold" and of course "the color is not according to the SOP". For me the lighter colored birds look all washed up. But if we can agree to a common ground of reasonable color variation that would be best for everyone.

On the other hand, folks with more colorful birds need to share the responsibility as well as to raising their point of view in the forums as well as Cream Legbar Club meetings so that the more vocal side does not shape the standards.

I think @ChicKat has posted a color variation chart numerous times but except for a couple of people no one comes out and says yes let's do it. That chart I think is the basis for a common ground in color while maintaining the remainder of the SOP. So all in favor should say yes and participate in the next CLC meeting and get this issue over with. I say YES!

Here is the color chart for reference one more time:

 

[sol2go]

I think the split (if there is going to be one) will happen if folks with lighter color birds will continue to insult, demean and reject folks with more colorful birds with phrases like:

"Your birds are not cream, they are gold" and of course "the color is not according to the SOP". For me the lighter colored birds look all washed up. But if we can agree to a common ground of reasonable color variation that would be best for everyone.

On the other hand, folks with more colorful birds need to share the responsibility as well as to raising their point of view in the forums as well as Cream Legbar Club meetings so that the more vocal side does not shape the standards.

I think @ChicKat has posted a color variation chart numerous times but except for a couple of people no one comes out and says yes let's do it. That chart I think is the basis for a common ground in color while maintaining the remainder of the SOP. So all in favor should say yes and participate in the next CLC meeting and get this issue over with. I say YES!

Here is the color chart for reference one more time:

I do not agree that the color chart is a useful reference.
Sorry ChicKat, I've tried to avoid saying this, but it keeps coming up.

 

[Junibutt]

I do not agree that the color chart is a useful reference.
Sorry ChicKat, I've tried to avoid saying this, but it keeps coming up.

Well its good to be honest. Now maybe you can propose an alternative.

 

[caychris]

I do not agree that the color chart is a useful reference.
Sorry ChicKat, I've tried to avoid saying this, but it keeps coming up.

I am in somewhat of agreement because SOP can not cover 100 percent of the chart. THe color variations need to be real for the genetics of the actual Cream Legbar a 100% gold (Cream Legbar) makes no sense. And a Gold Legbar is a different animal (does not lay blue/green eggs) So where do you draw the lines 42.3% to 54.7% gold color expression is considered Cream?

If the color expression of this breed is truly that wide maybe they shouldnt be a class of legbar at all (seeing as they differ from Gold and Silver in the crest and egg color departments) and be something completely different with expression standards similar to Orpingtons.

I think the real issue stems from including them in the list of Legbars (Gold/Silver/Cream) when the first 2 are more similar to each other and the 3rd is actually a different bird altogether (even though derived from one of the others)

Im think the brits did a disservice at the time by including it as a type of Legbar instead of splitting it off. I think the initial breedings selected for the cream color for uniformity purposes but the other expressions could have easily been chosen as well making Cream simply the breeders choice.

Where as Gold Legbars would have a uniformity of expression on their own with Silver being a rare genetic percentage that could be bred for from within the Gold population "Cream" (and by that i mean blue egg and crested) requires something else entirely and the Cream coloring was simply a color choice probably influenced by the results of the first cross type and other features and not specifically trying for a cream color. (best birds for type probably came out cream and therefore were the primary selection for breeding and produced the most uniformity of results in subsequent breedings) However now the latent genes and lack of clear interpretation of the standard have resulted in it becoming apparent that the breed itself may be to narrowly defined by closely associating it with the Legbar from which it was derived.

All this is a laymans interpretation based on the reading of the legbar and this thread information. I think in some regards having an APA SOP that corrects this association might be more important to the health of the breed than picking a color expression range that is "cream"

 

[KendyF]

I have another question regarding the "chart" Each bird represents matching Hackles and Saddle, would that become part of the Standard? Sorry, I am still digesting the information given today. When pretty much anywhere Legbars are discussed as "not meeting the color guide. I am now grasping at if they are all "Cream Legbars, what does that mean.

Today, I was talking to couple of people online regarding each bird. I had to ask about the color... lol, I can't see the issue just going away. However, I will be happy I am wrong.

Lastly are there thoughts on disseminating the concept that many shades of gold or crele may fit into the Legbar breed.

Thanks again.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks everyone !!! What great input. WOW -- Love this discussion one and all.

for Sol3go and KendyF -- no hard feelings at all - that you find the chart falling short. It has been a tool that helped me a LOT -- but you aren't alone in disliking it -- there are a number of others who dislike it. I appreciate your views... There is an old saying that 'two people will agree on everything if only one of them is thinking' -- and we have historic and recent examples of how bad Group Think can be! That being said -- the chart shows a gold color pattern - and a silver pattern. 100% of each color...and we do know (do we not?) that the Cream Legbar should be neither gold nor silver...ESPECIALLY the female. --- So when the chart was made it was to Kind of get an answer to the question "what is Cream" -- And thanks Junibutt for seeing the elephant in the room - that has been danced around for a few years. When I started this thread,,, I was of the opinion that the gold needed to be diluted from 40% to 10% to look correct for a CL -- Now I really think that 50% and down is a Cream Legbar acceptable dilution of gold AND 45% maybe perfect -- with slightly darker saddles (as long as not pure dense chestnut) and definite chestnut on the wing a far more proper Cream legbar.... is it gold at 40 or 50 percent... well yes, they are ALL gold -- cream is a diluter of gold. The chart doesn't show a mis-match of saddle and hackle, nor does it show chestnut. After all it is only a tool -- AND I doubt that the crisp reflection of the duckwing ancestry with barring will ever show up in our Cream Legbars -- but I have considered emphasizing that definite dark bar and the darker barring on my flock -- I like that look. Some people had thought that Punnett named the breed for the recessive gene and it has nothing to do with the appearance of the breed. Reading his cream papers -- he states that it is a color never seen before.... Like it or not - because of the name - cream is expected - Many people don't consider it a mark of breeding prowess to have a sliver-looking chicken that has some recessive genes - and you would never even know that they were there. Some people think that is nonsensical because -- if you want a silver looking bird -- then breed a silver. It is a to each his own. Cream is harder than silver.

Also for everyone -- in a show if there are 4 Cream Legbars -- how many are going to be perfect -- zero. Does that mean that we should never show a CL that is imperfect?

Chicken pickin and BuffyB -- really good points!! Very well said -- I need to hop back up there and give you some Ovations!!

caychris - we may be bound by the 'mistake' that the UK made -- but it does trace back to Punnett & Pease so we are bound by it. Could you extrapolate your view a little more with some ideas for what we can do? Are you suggesting in a way that the USA should make the Cream Legbar it's own breed apart from the gold and silver. You are right that this genetic make up is certainly one of the most complex.


Junibutt -- I wonder if there would be people who would step up and speak up -- LOL - and what happens to the ones who the vote doesn't go their way.?? Thanks for the insights and thanks that you get it.

for some years the question unanswered has been 'what color is cream'? -- and in the chicken world brown is gold, white is sliver, gray is blue -- and maybe cream is white -- but it isn't in the other breeds -that are cream .... It is also something that has a range -- as in Cream Brabanter..... I wonder if they have the same agony over color that Cream Legbar folks have. Even the Dutch Bantam in Cream -- has a range.... So I'm kind of mystified as to why the CL couldn't.

As Kendy put up her rooster thinking it wasn't Cream and several of us have said it looks cream to me -- I'm wondering what those of you who think hers isn't cream do think IS cream ?? any photos to share here?

Last word -- we won't ever have a perfect chicken (well maybe in 50-years) -- Most people who think of a Cream Legbar don't think of a bird with no color. (yes we can get too much color ---) the very things that attracted people to the breed in the first place make them distinguishable and recognizable from all other breed.

IMO an APA judge wouldn't shave the hairs (feathers?) as closely as we are trying to do - LOL -- they would be looking at a big picture of the fowl -- and not so much the difference between a bit cream and more cream......

Agreeing with everyone here -- there seems to be so much controversy -- we are very much a work in progress, and have a lot of work to do -- and people should definitely be true to their own inner guidance and breed the Cream Legbar that they like.

 

[caychris]

caychris - we may be bound by the 'mistake' that the UK made -- but it does trace back to Punnett & Pease so we are bound by it. Could you extrapolate your view a little more with some ideas for what we can do? Are you suggesting in a way that the USA should make the Cream Legbar it's own breed apart from the gold and silver. You are right that this genetic make up is certainly one of the most complex.

Actually yes that was what I was suggesting. If we went with something that was more descriptive of the real genetic difference Blue Egg Legbar with the currently recognized Color Cream, Selective breeding could not only generate Cream but serveral other variations and Emphasize Crest variations too.

Getting the APA to recognize the British CLB as a Blue Egg Legbar*(for lack of a better term at the moment) subtype Cream would go a long way towards getting other preferences well designated and eventually accepted. It would also star to clear up some of the confusion about if it was a Cream Legbar or not because it would be more apparent that it was a blue egg legbar (especially the females) stock and you could work with the build then paint concept a little better especially if you actually prefer a particular paint.

 

[chicken pickin]

Thanks everyone !!! What great input. WOW -- Love this discussion one and all.

for Sol3go and KendyF -- no hard feelings at all - that you find the chart falling short. It has been a tool that helped me a LOT -- but you aren't alone in disliking it -- there are a number of others who dislike it. I appreciate your views... There is an old saying that 'two people will agree on everything if only one of them is thinking' -- and we have historic and recent examples of how bad Group Think can be! That being said -- the chart shows a gold color pattern - and a silver pattern. 100% of each color...and we do know (do we not?) that the Cream Legbar should be neither gold nor silver...ESPECIALLY the female. --- So when the chart was made it was to Kind of get an answer to the question "what is Cream" -- And thanks Junibutt for seeing the elephant in the room - that has been danced around for a few years. When I started this thread,,, I was of the opinion that the gold needed to be diluted from 40% to 10% to look correct for a CL -- Now I really think that 50% and down is a Cream Legbar acceptable dilution of gold AND 45% maybe perfect -- with slightly darker saddles (as long as not pure dense chestnut) and definite chestnut on the wing a far more proper Cream legbar.... is it gold at 40 or 50 percent... well yes, they are ALL gold -- cream is a diluter of gold. The chart doesn't show a mis-match of saddle and hackle, nor does it show chestnut. After all it is only a tool -- AND I doubt that the crisp reflection of the duckwing ancestry with barring will ever show up in our Cream Legbars -- but I have considered emphasizing that definite dark bar and the darker barring on my flock -- I like that look. Some people had thought that Punnett named the breed for the recessive gene and it has nothing to do with the appearance of the breed. Reading his cream papers -- he states that it is a color never seen before.... Like it or not - because of the name - cream is expected - Many people don't consider it a mark of breeding prowess to have a sliver-looking chicken that has some recessive genes - and you would never even know that they were there. Some people think that is nonsensical because -- if you want a silver looking bird -- then breed a silver. It is a to each his own. Cream is harder than silver.

Also for everyone -- in a show if there are 4 Cream Legbars -- how many are going to be perfect -- zero. Does that mean that we should never show a CL that is imperfect?

Chicken pickin and BuffyB -- really good points!! Very well said -- I need to hop back up there and give you some Ovations!!

caychris - we may be bound by the 'mistake' that the UK made -- but it does trace back to Punnett & Pease so we are bound by it. Could you extrapolate your view a little more with some ideas for what we can do? Are you suggesting in a way that the USA should make the Cream Legbar it's own breed apart from the gold and silver. You are right that this genetic make up is certainly one of the most complex.


Junibutt -- I wonder if there would be people who would step up and speak up -- LOL - and what happens to the ones who the vote doesn't go their way.?? Thanks for the insights and thanks that you get it.

for some years the question unanswered has been 'what color is cream'? -- and in the chicken world brown is gold, white is sliver, gray is blue -- and maybe cream is white -- but it isn't in the other breeds -that are cream .... It is also something that has a range -- as in Cream Brabanter..... I wonder if they have the same agony over color that Cream Legbar folks have. Even the Dutch Bantam in Cream -- has a range.... So I'm kind of mystified as to why the CL couldn't.

As Kendy put up her rooster thinking it wasn't Cream and several of us have said it looks cream to me -- I'm wondering what those of you who think hers isn't cream do think IS cream ?? any photos to share here?

Last word -- we won't ever have a perfect chicken (well maybe in 50-years) -- Most people who think of a Cream Legbar don't think of a bird with no color. (yes we can get too much color ---) the very things that attracted people to the breed in the first place make them distinguishable and recognizable from all other breed.

IMO an APA judge wouldn't shave the hairs (feathers?) as closely as we are trying to do - LOL -- they would be looking at a big picture of the fowl -- and not so much the difference between a bit cream and more cream......

Agreeing with everyone here -- there seems to be so much controversy -- we are very much a work in progress, and have a lot of work to do -- and people should definitely be true to their own inner guidance and breed the Cream Legbar that they like.

I had wrote a post last night regarding the male and female she posted up and unfortunately I was having a bad connection and lost what I had written. But in a gist I was telling her that I believe her male has very nice warm cream hackles, I couldn't enlarge the photos and I know photos can often lie but the color on her males hackles is close to what I would like to see on my Cream males as well. Though I personally would try to get a more cream saddle to go with it. I do agree he looks cream, as well as her female she posted. Again I couldn't enlarge that photo either so I couldn't get a good look at the hackle color but over all she looked nice and all it would take is to breed a little more toward gray body feathering and away from the brown/taupe color( which many females in many breeding programs have even Cream females).

I also asked the same question to her, what is/was your idea of what cream looks like before these recent discussion took place? Others can answer as well.

 

[ChicKat]

I agree that there is a variety of color appearances that can all be labeled Cream. Remembering that Cream is the expression of a gene, we may have to do some work to figure out if some birds actually are Silver instead of Gold, leading to the appearance of Cream. And how would that best be done?

Somehow that sounds confusing.

Personally I like the more gold-colored birds with bright chestnut markings, and yes I know they are not correct for Cream. I just like 'em

My issue with these Legbars is egg color - I was looking for a really nice blue egg, and many lay a more greenish blue egg. Compared to my Arkansas Blues, whose eggs are a lovely clear blue, they really look less blue than green. Fortunately the Standard was written to allow this - although again, my preference is for a BLUE egg.

1muttsfan, I so agree with most of what you are saying that it could have been written by me. I'm kind of exaggerating that my bird may be silver..however the male has two genes at that locus and so it could be S/s+ and carry both silver and gold genes. Or it could not. That is one reason why I so wish that we could get a DNA sequence on a chicken... because of what we cannot see - and because of how I see the testing with cream a bit tricky - even especially since cream means a different appearance to different folks.

Not sure if when you say gold-colored you are talking about something as gold as 100% gold, or the type like the stock that I have -- with the wing tell showing other than B&W. but I also like the more gold colored birds - Since gold is brown, any brown on the wing triangle may show that there is a lacking or a lazy cream gene in the pair -- but no one actually knows that for sure -- and there is a lot of speculation.

I agree with you so 100% on the egg color...and IT would be neat to see a photo of your Arkansas Blue egg beside one of your CL eggs. Do you by any chance have an OAC? I would be so interested in how you rate the eggs there for color comparison. -- Like you I want a true clear blue egg. When I put a CL egg beside one of my Isbar's eggs -- you can really tell the difference Blue/green...
.
There are only 4 Cream Legbar eggs there all 4 in the bottom two rows..all the other eggs are Isbar. My cream legbar eggs lately have all been going out in the mail.

Usually I identify my CL eggs as close to OAC179. -- however everyone even sees colors a bit differently. We do know for the most part...and chicken pickin's great photo that the Jill Rees line will produce greener eggs. -- I would love to see my eggs at OAC 214. a while back I asked if anyone had a "bluer" than OAC179 - and no one stepped up to the plate.

Sadly there was someone here in the USA that outcrossed Cream Legbars and then produced olive-egg laying CL so I hear...all kind of stuff goes on....

I so agree with you the bluer the egg the better...and other than increasing the carotinoids in the chicken's diet, I know of nothing we can do except years of selecting away from greens and toward blues and not IMO 'contaminating' our blues with lines that would make them greener...does that make sense?

Actually yes that was what I was suggesting. If we went with something that was more descriptive of the real genetic difference Blue Egg Legbar with the currently recognized Color Cream, Selective breeding could not only generate Cream but serveral other variations and Emphasize Crest variations too.

Getting the APA to recognize the British CLB as a Blue Egg Legbar*(for lack of a better term at the moment) subtype Cream would go a long way towards getting other preferences well designated and eventually accepted. It would also star to clear up some of the confusion about if it was a Cream Legbar or not because it would be more apparent that it was a blue egg legbar (especially the females) stock and you could work with the build then paint concept a little better especially if you actually prefer a particular paint.

I understand what you are saying -- but I think that the APA doesn't care about egg-laying a lot -- although there are egg contests at APA Poultry shows and they are great fun - I advise everyone to enter them - they are fun, don't require that you have your P/T testing done ....etc. - and I am proud of me chooks because I have two ribbons and also won a large package of meal worms -- based on putting their eggs in a show.

The APA is that moment of truth in the "show ring" -- what does the bird look like, how does the bird feel when the judge picks it up -- how is it muscled, fleshed, how does it hold itself. Tell you what -- when you come down to it -- winning at a show may be as much dependent upon the particular age of the bird entered as it is on the bird. For example a pullet at POL that has red face and fully developed comb and plumage but no depletion of her yellow leg color -- would probably beat an identical pullet that had been laying long enough to fade her legs a bit to very pale yellow. Some showers even hatch to coordinate optimum age with dates of shows...6mo on a pullet (depending on breed ours would probably see 6-month pullets doing best) -- and 11 month cockerels. As yet I haven't heard or seen hens and actual roosters shown....one pullet was mis-identified as a hen - she was 6-months old or so - but had begun to lay so the owners thought she was a hen as of 6-mos. To carry that further... with old age, the hens and roosters look a bit bedraggled. (like us humans in old age sometmes)--- No beauty contest there. For my pat - I would choose the work horse over the show horse -- and never want autosexing or blue egg laying to be diminished so the feathers are more conforming -- especially conforming to an interpretation of the SOP that is different from mine. So my bird may never be national champion...

But there won't be ambiguous autosexing - or yard decor chickens that aren't highly productive in the eggs category!

Because UK has a breed Legbar and a variety Cream - would we be disingenuous to claim it for ourselves -- LOL -- I know some of them wish we would - because our CLs are different from a lot of theirs over there.... Being a breed accepted in UK in 1958 - gives the USA a leg up to get accepted - because it is an established breed. JMO.

 

[ChicKat]

I had wrote a post last night regarding the male and female she posted up and unfortunately I was having a bad connection and lost what I had written. But in a gist I was telling her that I believe her male has very nice warm cream hackles, I couldn't enlarge the photos and I know photos can often lie but the color on her males hackles is close to what I would like to see on my Cream males as well. Though I personally would try to get a more cream saddle to go with it. I do agree he looks cream, as well as her female she posted. Again I couldn't enlarge that photo either so I couldn't get a good look at the hackle color but over all she looked nice and all it would take is to breed a little more toward gray body feathering and away from the brown/taupe color( which many females in many breeding programs have even Cream females).

I also asked the same question to her, what is/was your idea of what cream looks like before these recent discussion took place? Others can answer as well.

Hate when I loose a post....

Your summary is Sooo good !!! Thanks!

This is a real turning point/eye-opener too...if one that a number of people think is cream-hackeld is considered crele -- we are really splitting hairs more than I think any APA judge ever would. And as someone already said in here -- we are still evolving.

Should someone want to support the definite dark gold -- as a crele -- I can see that as useful -- but to make an added SOP for a Cream Legbar that is slightly imperfect (i.e. some evaluate the saddle as too dark, and if the saddle should match the hackles then it is -- and as KPenly pointed out one time -- the descriptors in the DRAFT SOP are I believe the same for both saddles and hackles)

so good eval...