Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[chicken pickin]

The bluest CL egg I have gotten is from my 9month old pullet it was a 151 on the OAC. She lays this color consistently, her sisters egg is a similar blue as hers though not as saturated. Ill have to take a new pic with both eggs on the OAC.

Here is the egg that is 151


And same pullet egg that is oac151 in the background with an egg that is oac123 from my original hen(either the pullets mother or aunt)


Im hoping that means Im in the direction of bettering future eggs...

 

[ChicKat]

The bluest CL egg I have gotten is from my 9month old pullet it was a 151 on the OAC. She lays this color consistently, her sisters egg is a similar blue as hers though not as saturated. Ill have to take a new pic with both eggs on the OAC.

Here is the egg that is 151


And same pullet egg that is oac151 in the background with an egg that is oac123 from my original hen(either the pullets mother or aunt)


Im hoping that means Im in the direction of bettering future eggs...

IMO - a whole page better!!

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

Thanks for the revival of this discussion KendyF. I have a feeling it is just going to take time to get to where we want to be with Cream Legbars in the US. Also, I guess I don't understand who all the naysayers are? Granted I don't get around the internet much. But if it is people with established flocks in the UK I am not sure how meaningful that is to us in the US.

Instead of splitting hairs about what is too colorful etc. I wish we could focus on getting more consistent Cream Legbars through out the US that have the basic traits. I am not really speaking about those that have been in the breed for a while but a lot of newcomers end up with birds that are lacking basic characteristics. I have seen a lot of pics of Legbars that don't look like Legbars at all and they don't lay blue/green eggs, are ambiguous in autosexing, are lacking crests, are lacking type, are clearly hybrids etc.

I feel like if those defining features are widely promoted and focused on the rest will follow suit? I mean people will always have disagreements but it seems like the finer details will become more clear with time.

 

[caychris]

1muttsfan, I so agree with most of what you are saying that it could have been written by me. I'm kind of exaggerating that my bird may be silver..however the male has two genes at that locus and so it could be S/s+ and carry both silver and gold genes. Or it could not. That is one reason why I so wish that we could get a DNA sequence on a chicken... because of what we cannot see - and because of how I see the testing with cream a bit tricky - even especially since cream means a different appearance to different folks.

Not sure if when you say gold-colored you are talking about something as gold as 100% gold, or the type like the stock that I have -- with the wing tell showing other than B&W. but I also like the more gold colored birds - Since gold is brown, any brown on the wing triangle may show that there is a lacking or a lazy cream gene in the pair -- but no one actually knows that for sure -- and there is a lot of speculation.

I agree with you so 100% on the egg color...and IT would be neat to see a photo of your Arkansas Blue egg beside one of your CL eggs. Do you by any chance have an OAC? I would be so interested in how you rate the eggs there for color comparison. -- Like you I want a true clear blue egg. When I put a CL egg beside one of my Isbar's eggs -- you can really tell the difference Blue/green...
.
There are only 4 Cream Legbar eggs there all 4 in the bottom two rows..all the other eggs are Isbar. My cream legbar eggs lately have all been going out in the mail.

Usually I identify my CL eggs as close to OAC179. -- however everyone even sees colors a bit differently. We do know for the most part...and chicken pickin's great photo that the Jill Rees line will produce greener eggs. -- I would love to see my eggs at OAC 214. a while back I asked if anyone had a "bluer" than OAC179 - and no one stepped up to the plate.

Sadly there was someone here in the USA that outcrossed Cream Legbars and then produced olive-egg laying CL so I hear...all kind of stuff goes on....

I so agree with you the bluer the egg the better...and other than increasing the carotinoids in the chicken's diet, I know of nothing we can do except years of selecting away from greens and toward blues and not IMO 'contaminating' our blues with lines that would make them greener...does that make sense?
I understand what you are saying -- but I think that the APA doesn't care about egg-laying a lot -- although there are egg contests at APA Poultry shows and they are great fun - I advise everyone to enter them - they are fun, don't require that you have your P/T testing done ....etc. - and I am proud of me chooks because I have two ribbons and also won a large package of meal worms -- based on putting their eggs in a show.

The APA is that moment of truth in the "show ring" -- what does the bird look like, how does the bird feel when the judge picks it up -- how is it muscled, fleshed, how does it hold itself. Tell you what -- when you come down to it -- winning at a show may be as much dependent upon the particular age of the bird entered as it is on the bird. For example a pullet at POL that has red face and fully developed comb and plumage but no depletion of her yellow leg color -- would probably beat an identical pullet that had been laying long enough to fade her legs a bit to very pale yellow. Some showers even hatch to coordinate optimum age with dates of shows...6mo on a pullet (depending on breed ours would probably see 6-month pullets doing best) -- and 11 month cockerels. As yet I haven't heard or seen hens and actual roosters shown....one pullet was mis-identified as a hen - she was 6-months old or so - but had begun to lay so the owners thought she was a hen as of 6-mos. To carry that further... with old age, the hens and roosters look a bit bedraggled. (like us humans in old age sometmes)--- No beauty contest there. For my pat - I would choose the work horse over the show horse -- and never want autosexing or blue egg laying to be diminished so the feathers are more conforming -- especially conforming to an interpretation of the SOP that is different from mine. So my bird may never be national champion...

But there won't be ambiguous autosexing - or yard decor chickens that aren't highly productive in the eggs category!

Because UK has a breed Legbar and a variety Cream - would we be disingenuous to claim it for ourselves -- LOL -- I know some of them wish we would - because our CLs are different from a lot of theirs over there.... Being a breed accepted in UK in 1958 - gives the USA a leg up to get accepted - because it is an established breed. JMO.

The reason i pointed out the blue egg laying was because the gold and silver legbars lay different colored eggs than the cream variety of legbar. And it would be more appropriate in my opinion to separate them based on that (and cresting) distinctions. Selecting the cream color out of these new birds as opposed to one of the many that could have presented (as we are finding out) was just a personal preference to me that doesnt justify lumping them in with gold and silver.

They should have had their own distinction allowing breeders to develop off colors much like the silver was developed from the gold.

Its just my opinion and since the bird is not currently in the APA list it is an opportunity to correct for it and by highlighting that distinction by being different than the Brits it might also help resolve some of the issues with the people involved as well when they are forced to recognize that there is more than one way to view this bird. It might drive a wedge between the two groups but if the standards for the "Cream" in the APA are coordinated with the Brits then the issue of "thats not a cream legbar" becomes moot because its still a blue egg legbar and if the brits what to classify all developed colors under legbars thats their choice.

 

[ChicKat]

I think the split (if there is going to be one) will happen if folks with lighter color birds will continue to insult, demean and reject folks with more colorful birds with phrases like:

"Your birds are not cream, they are gold" and of course "the color is not according to the SOP". For me the lighter colored birds look all washed up. But if we can agree to a common ground of reasonable color variation that would be best for everyone.

On the other hand, folks with more colorful birds need to share the responsibility as well as to raising their point of view in the forums as well as Cream Legbar Club meetings so that the more vocal side does not shape the standards.

I think @ChicKat has posted a color variation chart numerous times but except for a couple of people no one comes out and says yes let's do it. That chart I think is the basis for a common ground in color while maintaining the remainder of the SOP. So all in favor should say yes and participate in the next CLC meeting and get this issue over with. I say YES!

Here is the color chart for reference one more time:

Thanks again Junibutt,

Way-back-when, when the pendulum was swinging back and forth a lot -- LOL - and everyone who was anyone was saying that the Cream Legbar should have no coloration - despite the allowable chestnut which most in the USA prefer and most in the UK seem to dislike (it's still allowed folks!) -- We were on a roller coaster-- my birds came from GFF - but they aren't CLs after all--- oh maybe they ARE CLs -- oh, I have birds I love but they aren't REALLY Cream Legbars they are something else...as Junibutt said they were 'gold' despite the crest and blue eggs, or they were not according to SOP -- if some of the experts had discussed how they interpreted the SOP -- it may have driven fewer away from the breed -- but they were pretty adamant.

Then a UK judge gave us the word that the correct color of cream is the color of pale butter....or maybe it was very pale or very very very very pale - or something. And suddenly those of us that had some pale butter on our non-white Cream Legbar -- had Cream Legbars once again -- all with the words of a judge... We were kind of celebrating that our Cream Legbars came back to us. LOL

And as you can imagine we were pretty happy about that. Then the pendulum swung around a little more -- and the white-looking CLs were saying it was VERY pale butter like white -- and those of us with the 'more colorful', 'disowned', 'must be a mutt, hybrid, non-cream CL, far from SOP' etc. and the only correct CL was the ultra light one...etc. -- So Junibutt makes no exaggeration it did leave us wondering what we could do. If you read the DRAFT of the SOP (USA version) and you replace the word Cream with the word pale butter - does a different chicken come to mind? Is the chicken more like the one in your own flock -- could you possibly have a Cream Legbar after all? surprise... we went more to the BUTTER than to the pale...that's for sure.

This photo from the 1980's Fancy Fowl Magazine (BTW Grant Brereton is the current editor - and if you were in the UK you could attend a genetics seminar he is doing at the end of May). In the photo attributed to David Applegarth who is credited with rescuing the CL from Oblivion and who was somehow at Cambridge U. during Punnett's time are a pair of Cream Legbars. This photo is probably as CLOSE as we will ever get to asking Punnett the correct appearance of our beed.


Photo may have faded in nearly 30-years but you can get a clear idea...and the saddle and hackle feathers do not match to my eye (well after all they are Leghorn based what do you expect)---

Now here is a pair of backyard mutts because non-white-looking? or NOT

To my eye they are close to Applegarth photo. Some may say that Applegarth photo isn't a CL -- but I think maybe a leading Poultry Magazine in UK and the one who rescued the breed from oblivion wouldn't mis-label the birds. If they were cross-bred or hybred then the article would probably NOT label them as CLs. Color on these guys -- not too bd IMO -- are they Crele? When I started this thread I would have said they needed their own SOP -- but now I'm wondering if the ones that lack all color need their own SOP apart from the CL one -- if Applegarth knows his chickens that is.

Going back to dig up these photos -- I came across FMP's cockerel:

I'm guessing that this is one that people are thinking requires a different SOP -- Actually I see it as a Cream Legbar - it is very saturated true. Far enough from Applegarth bird to need a different SOP? Let's say in 5-years the CL is accepted -- and part of the 'true CL' is that it has to have a matching saddle and hackle [I would question if the light looking hackles should be darkened or the dark looking saddles should be lightened...etc.] So if FMP put this bird in a show competing with --let's say the Applegarth bird above (or either bird above), it would probably have a point or two deducted for saturation, as would the birds above with mis-match -- Probably FMP's bird would win the show based on being a superior cockerel - (that is if it has a CREST - I can't tell from the photo if it actually does. If it doesn't -- then it would be a DQ.)

I will say again - I don't think a different SOP is needed for a bird like FMP's -- it would be really really confusing to try to segragate which was which..IMO. Would wing triangle be the one difference?

Now I also want to say that some of the best 'true' cream I have seen are chcken pickin's birds -- posted and explained earlier in this thread.

Two questions:
1. For those of you who would see - probably all these images as crele, then what would you see as cream -- we really need some photos....
2. If you were to suspend your disbelief for a moment - what would be the implications of these above looking birds being considered Cream Legbars? A lot more people would own Cream Legbars -- chicken pickin would win all the coloration contests...

More people would have Cream Legbars - they would have already have been raising them for a number of years... The important traits could get the focus that they need.... type, crest, eggs, productivity, health, disposition, combs etc.etc. etc. In 5-or 10 years the breed may look more like the Applegarth chickens, or it could become a chicken with a matching hackle-saddle (hopefully not a white looking hackle) and the breed could be split into another variety just as the brown leghorn once was.

 

[ChicKat]

The reason i pointed out the blue egg laying was because the gold and silver legbars lay different colored eggs than the cream variety of legbar. And it would be more appropriate in my opinion to separate them based on that (and cresting) distinctions. Selecting the cream color out of these new birds as opposed to one of the many that could have presented (as we are finding out) was just a personal preference to me that doesnt justify lumping them in with gold and silver.

They should have had their own distinction allowing breeders to develop off colors much like the silver was developed from the gold.

Its just my opinion and since the bird is not currently in the APA list it is an opportunity to correct for it and by highlighting that distinction by being different than the Brits it might also help resolve some of the issues with the people involved as well when they are forced to recognize that there is more than one way to view this bird. It might drive a wedge between the two groups but if the standards for the "Cream" in the APA are coordinated with the Brits then the issue of "thats not a cream legbar" becomes moot because its still a blue egg legbar and if the brits what to classify all developed colors under legbars thats their choice.

I hear what you are saying...
At one point I entertained developing a bantam - from Cream Legbar and a known silver line of bantam leghorns - silver duckwing. Since it would be a project, and since bantams are more popular now a days because everyone wants more and more chickens.....The name I was going to give my breed was going to contain the fact that it was a blue egg layer - and that it was silver etc...But I think I'm at too advanced an age to get there before I check out.

Maybe the names that you are thinking of would be appropriate should another standard be created - since Crele - is simply an explanation for the combinaton of wild type and barring genes and is a feather pattern more than a color (to the genetic community) I know to the fly-tying community (some reference articles are earlier in this thread - and some photos of fly-tying Creles ) The crele is tri-color - and they call it creel BTW - and the plain B&W barring is called grizzly or grizzled I think -- all you fly-tying experts correct me if I am wrong.

Keep the good ideas coming -- and thanks to everyone who weighed in with your views.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

Thanks again Junibutt,

Way-back-when, when the pendulum was swinging back and forth a lot -- LOL - and everyone who was anyone was saying that the Cream Legbar should have no coloration - despite the allowable chestnut which most in the USA prefer and most in the UK seem to dislike (it's still allowed folks!) -- We were on a roller coaster-- my birds came from GFF - but they aren't CLs after all--- oh maybe they ARE CLs -- oh, I have birds I love but they aren't REALLY Cream Legbars they are something else...as Junibutt said they were 'gold' despite the crest and blue eggs, or they were not according to SOP -- if some of the experts had discussed how they interpreted the SOP -- it may have driven fewer away from the breed -- but they were pretty adamant.

Then a UK judge gave us the word that the correct color of cream is the color of pale butter....or maybe it was very pale or very very very very pale - or something. And suddenly those of us that had some pale butter on our non-white Cream Legbar -- had Cream Legbars once again -- all with the words of a judge... We were kind of celebrating that our Cream Legbars came back to us. LOL

I am so glad I missed all of that! It must just be growing pains that people always have to go through these things. There is a saying somewhere about how things are rejected, ridiculed and then eventually accepted.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

Going back to dig up these photos -- I came across FMP's cockerel:

I'm guessing that this is one that people are thinking requires a different SOP -- Actually I see it as a Cream Legbar - it is very saturated true. Far enough from Applegarth bird to need a different SOP? Let's say in 5-years the CL is accepted -- and part of the 'true CL' is that it has to have a matching saddle and hackle [I would question if the light looking hackles should be darkened or the dark looking saddles should be lightened...etc.] So if FMP put this bird in a show competing with --let's say the Applegarth bird above (or either bird above), it would probably have a point or two deducted for saturation, as would the birds above with mis-match -- Probably FMP's bird would win the show based on being a superior cockerel - (that is if it has a CREST - I can't tell from the photo if it actually does. If it doesn't -- then it would be a DQ.)

I will say again - I don't think a different SOP is needed for a bird like FMP's -- it would be really really confusing to try to segragate which was which..IMO. Would wing triangle be the one difference?

Now I also want to say that some of the best 'true' cream I have seen are chcken pickin's birds -- posted and explained earlier in this thread.

Two questions:
1. For those of you who would see - probably all these images as crele, then what would you see as cream -- we really need some photos....
2. If you were to suspend your disbelief for a moment - what would be the implications of these above looking birds being considered Cream Legbars? A lot more people would own Cream Legbars -- chicken pickin would win all the coloration contests...

More people would have Cream Legbars - they would have already have been raising them for a number of years... The important traits could get the focus that they need.... type, crest, eggs, productivity, health, disposition, combs etc.etc. etc. In 5-or 10 years the breed may look more like the Applegarth chickens, or it could become a chicken with a matching hackle-saddle (hopefully not a white looking hackle) and the breed could be split into another variety just as the brown leghorn once was.

I agree with you on this. I think there is room for variation. In fact, I don't think there will be a choice. Nature loves variation and even when you have the very best breeding program it pops up. Most of it isn't harmful and I believe it is ultimately the best thing for the birds. And...a lot of people will never show their birds. If they focus on the main characteristics of the breed they will have Cream Legbars that look like Cream Legbars even if they wouldn't win a show.

And of course I agree with you about the important traits!

 

[Junibutt]

Thanks for the revival of this discussion KendyF. I have a feeling it is just going to take time to get to where we want to be with Cream Legbars in the US. Also, I guess I don't understand who all the naysayers are? Granted I don't get around the internet much. But if it is people with established flocks in the UK I am not sure how meaningful that is to us in the US.

Instead of splitting hairs about what is too colorful etc. I wish we could focus on getting more consistent Cream Legbars through out the US that have the basic traits. I am not really speaking about those that have been in the breed for a while but a lot of newcomers end up with birds that are lacking basic characteristics. I have seen a lot of pics of Legbars that don't look like Legbars at all and they don't lay blue/green eggs, are ambiguous in autosexing, are lacking crests, are lacking type, are clearly hybrids etc.

I feel like if those defining features are widely promoted and focused on the rest will follow suit? I mean people will always have disagreements but it seems like the finer details will become more clear with time.

Couldn't agree with you more. The color discussion has overshadowed the basic traits! Its very confusing for newcomers to be bombarded with color issues when they need to know about these basic traits.

 

[kjbizy1]

WE are fairly certain that a very large crest will cause a wrinkled comb.  Allowable on the female and NOT on the male.  There has been some discussion lately if the term 'crest' would be better expressed as a tuft for both male and female.

Most crested breeds have a skull bulge to accomodate the growth of a very large crest.  There are a LOT of CLs that do not have a skull bulge, and it is considered advantageous to truly have only a small tuft on the male in order to maintain the straightest possible comb. The hen would need a small neat crest...and although allowed, the comb would be more beneficial to the male descendents if it were to be small.

Starting at the top - and thinking more about 'type' - the 'crele' or 'tri-colored' would have a crest, as we consider it one of the traits of the Legbar, because in the USA the correct ones have crests.  Cresting is proposed to be a dominant gene.  

However there are legbars that lack crests (gold and silver)--- as yet there has been no interest expressed in these Varieties.  The White Legbar has a crest, and lays a blue egg.... and we would need a lot of interest in white to push forward, I'm not sure of the ease of autosexing for whites in multiple generations down the line -- but whites do have crests.  

To circle back to the proposed SOP - has anyone 'discovered' the wording 'tuft' or 'tufted' in the APA SOP - the genetic foundations are I believe, the same, but the results are different.  Also regarding the Crest, could a breed have both herniated and non-herniated individuals?  It seems that they would be too different to be the same variety.... any thoughts on crests for a newly developed SOP?

Well,the conundrum here is we want a nice crest and the want to limit a roosters crest for a straight comb. We allow the

hen the accomodation on her comb for that crest, why not the rooster then?
I have a cockerel with a knockout crest, and of course his comb is not straight, and I will use him for breeding.