Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[dretd]

Well, I will jump in - strictly in a nonpersonal way!

As far as color goes, I think immediately of cream when I look at 2, 6, and 9. As far as type goes, lots of squirrel tails, and many combs look awry, although I suspect frostbite plays a part in at least some of them. I like 5 and 7 for color, although you know I like them more saturated. 1 not so much for either color or shape.

Thanks 1muttsfan, for your opinion. I will post the underlying genetics of each rooster when more people weigh in with their thoughts. Are you a person who looks at the 'Cream' in the Cream Legbar as a genetic state ig/ig or a pale buttery color of a bird?

 

[sol2go]

Thanks for the gorgeous Post dr.ETD, --- and all the fowl pictures.

Maybe 10 is overwhelming and we can break it down one-by-one and tackle it.

<edited>

So that circles back to 'what color is cream' -- which I thought we had once gotten answered by a UK judge...but it seems to either not have filtered to Kendy's facebook groups or if they ever heard it -- it didn't stick. \

Please, everyone who is participating in this forum -- weigh in on either the photos dretd posted one at a time or all at once. !!

Hi @ChicKat regarding the UK judge and "what is cream"…who is "we", and in what way was that "answer" applied to our understanding of the proposed SOP?
Is there anything that has been generated within this thread that has specifically changed the course and understanding of the proposed SOP?

 

[sol2go]

Thanks 1muttsfan, for your opinion. I will post the underlying genetics of each rooster when more people weigh in with their thoughts. Are you a person who looks at the 'Cream' in the Cream Legbar as a genetic state ig/ig or a pale buttery color of a bird?

Hi @dretd
thanks for your posts.

To anyone, can you post examples of a CL rooster with pale buttery hackle and saddle feathers (more matched than mismatched) that does not have a gold wing triangle?

If the wing triangle is the "tell" for gold vs cream, then I think an example as described above could help to set the range of color in the hackle and saddle feathers, i.e. from creamy white to pale buttery.

Conversely, if anyone has examples of a CL rooster with creamy white hackle and saddle feathers (matched) that also has a gold wing triangle, then the discussion has a way to go.

As a side note, does anyone have pictures of a CL rooster with creamy white hackle and saddle feathers, no gold wing triangle, and bright shoulder color? I have only seen much duller and more limited areas of chestnut on the shoulder of the creamy white roos, which follows the genetic discussion that @nicalandia offered earlier in this thread (basically double barring and double cream are powerful diluters of gold and red).

 

[fowlman01]

Thanks for the reply. I am hoping you can be more specific and elaborate a bit more for me. The color reference in the proposed SOP will always be Cream--we are not going to change that term its how we interpret what is meant by Cream that is the issue.

I think the crux of the color issue for the Cream Legbar is that some people (me included) think that the term Cream refers to the genetics state of the bird carrying two copies of the gene inhibitor of gold and that is manifested in the phenotype as being something off-white (the appearance can be modified by many other complicating factors including how much red, how many melanizers and the type of barring the bird carries--not to mention the inherent saturation of the gold to start with). Other people (like Chickat) think that it only refers to the color of the bird that you see and that it does not refer to the underlying genetics of the bird at all.

So my specific questions for the APA is:1) should the ideal Cream Legbar be ig/ig (genetically expressing cream) or does the ideal Cream Legbar need to match the SOP regardless of the underlying genetics and if so, how is the term Cream perceived by a judge* given that the Cream Legbar is diluted further with barring?

2) Will it hinder the acceptance of the Cream Legbar into the APA SOP if there is a variation in the color phenotype, where some birds are more white-looking and others are gold tinted-- ie how much variation in 'Cream' plumage will be acceptable to a judge?

I really appreciate your point of view on this matter!

* the APA SOP (pg 7, 2010 edition) doesn't have a definition of Cream, only:
Creamy-White: A shade of pale yellowish white color; applied to the color of the plumage of the Pekin Duck; also in some breeds of fowl,
Creaminess: A term descriptive of white feathers in which the shafts and webs are tinged with a light yellow or creamy color; not the same as brassiness. Characteristic of the new feathers, dur to immaturity.

The color description should match the appearance of the actual bird.....not so much what genes are used to create the bird. When the CL are accepted, the APA will use your description of "Cream" and that can be put in the glossary as well. As far as judges.....the Legbar Club should start a campaign to educate judges to the CL's color. The type is Leghorn so they should not have a problem with that part.

It will hurt the acceptance if at the APA qualifying meet the birds look to different. Slight color shades would not be a problem, but if they look like they are each a different color pattern that will hurt. I have seen about four color 'looks" in these...both in person and here online.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Thanks for the comment Chickcat. I will eventually reveal the underlying genetics of each of these fellows--I think its very useful to look at them without knowing what that may be to 'blind' the 'study' if you will.
All of the roosters I have shown have various flaws--some of them very serious and yes all of them have some degree of frostbit damage including full loss of the blade and serious pink scarring on the lobe. #1 had minor pink showing in his lobe before the Polar Vortex but geeshh--he's not even the most damaged of the lot after.

One comment about the perception of the squirrel tails--his does at first glance look squirrel tail. The APA definition being "Squirrel Tail: One in which any portion projects forward of the vertical from its anterior base (fig. 34); a disqualification except in Japanese Bantams". In the second illustration they show the how to but have the greater sickles exactly following the angle of the main tail feathers.


I have always thought they were judging off the Main Tail Feathers when looking at the angle since the sickles are quite curved but this is probably not the case according to this definition. If you measure the angle on rooster 1, the main tail feathers actually measure in at about 55 degrees and the sickles really project forward and are at about 100 to 105 degrees depending on whether you measure the shaft or the leading edge of the sickle. That is a huge difference and it means that as a breeder I don't need to change the main tail angle by much but rather need to change the angle of the greater sickles. None of his male offspring have as bad a tail set as he does, nor are the comb/crest combos as far off either and none are as light as he is--number 10 is one of his sons as an example.

Here is a picture of the exact same rooster in October 2014 just as he was finishing his molt but before he grew in his greater sickles and before he was bleached by the sun


When I lay a protractor on the main tail vs horizontal it is around 60 degrees--it looks more acute becasue he has an upright back.

This bird would probably be DQed in a show for the tail shown in the first picture. It is hard to tell in this picture, but the abrupt tail rise is what is killing the tail angle and makes it look like a squirrel tail.

Walt

 

[ChicKat]

Hi @dretd
thanks for your posts.

To anyone, can you post examples of a CL rooster with pale buttery hackle and saddle feathers (more matched than mismatched) that does not have a gold wing triangle?

If the wing triangle is the "tell" for gold vs cream, then I think an example as described above could help to set the range of color in the hackle and saddle feathers, i.e. from creamy white to pale buttery.

Conversely, if anyone has examples of a CL rooster with creamy white hackle and saddle feathers (matched) that also has a gold wing triangle, then the discussion has a way to go.

As a side note, does anyone have pictures of a CL rooster with creamy white hackle and saddle feathers, no gold wing triangle, and bright shoulder color? I have only seen much duller and more limited areas of chestnut on the shoulder of the creamy white roos, which follows the genetic discussion that @nicalandia offered earlier in this thread (basically double barring and double cream are powerful diluters of gold and red).

Hi Sol2Go -

If you look at posts by chicken pickin - you will probably see 1. gray barring only on secondaries, 2. matching saddle and hackles 3. a non-white color -- very light cream -- I think the posts may be scattered around. One is in her avatar -- so you wouldn't have to go back too many pages in this thread to at least see the avatar.

 

[ChicKat]

This bird would probably be DQed in a show for the tail shown in the first picture. It is hard to tell in this picture, but the abrupt tail rise is what is killing the tail angle and makes it look like a squirrel tail.

Walt

I was noticing that exact thing in one of my cockerels today -- he has some good traits but has the high tail -- but I also see a very short back! I think if we could get longer backs we would get better tail angles. I was comparing to the old-time CLs -- and what a difference in our back and their era of the intro birds. Although they look a bit scroungey -- they have long backs and better tail angles -- Last B&W photo was sent to us by hahaUthinkso in the UK and it is from their version of our SOP. [ETA not the current version from the PCGB]





These I believe are drawings rather than photographs like the above:






If you ever go to the homepage on the Club's website - you will see the late great Lillian there -- as some have said the hens from the Jill Rees line are good. she had an exceptionally long back.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi @ChicKat regarding the UK judge and "what is cream"…who is "we", and in what way was that "answer" applied to our understanding of the proposed SOP?
Is there anything that has been generated within this thread that has specifically changed the course and understanding of the proposed SOP?

The 'we' is in general the Cream Legbar community in general and the CL Club in particular. Kestlyn is the one who contacted the judge - and he in turn checked with serveral UK judges and they came to a consensus.

I believe that the SOP is unaltered, but the understanding/interpretation based upon factual CLs in the UK -- has veered away from the males that had a completely white look - that many were being told was the ONLY look for a CL. I'm not sure because no one from the FB group has come back to post a pict of what that group is imaging as the ones that are different enough from hers to make a different variety.

Thinking of the coloration of dretd's #1 example - it is one that they may think is correct -- and others of us think if that is the target we don't want to go there. It would be a shame to loose the unique look of this breed IMO.

ETA - I guess I have to say that within this thread - started last October, one pivotal factor is that late last year the UK winner did not look pure white... You may see a resemblance to the winner in the list of photos that dretd posted. I would guess that one would have to be pretty SOP compliant. I will say once again - picture and color are only part of the story -- but we can only see photos and not hold the chicken to inspect it as the judges did... But we do have to work with what is available to us. If I can find the points awarded for color in UK CL judging I will come back and post it here.

 

[fowlman01]

I was noticing that exact thing in one of my cockerels today -- he has some good traits but has the high tail -- but I also see a very short back! I think if we could get longer backs we would get better tail angles. I was comparing to the old-time CLs -- and what a difference in our back and their era of the intro birds. Although they look a bit scroungey -- they have long backs and better tail angles -- Last B&W photo was sent to us by hahaUthinkso in the UK and it is from their version of our SOP. [ETA not the current version from the PCGB]





These I believe are drawings rather than photographs like the above:






If you ever go to the homepage on the Club's website - you will see the late great Lillian there -- as some have said the hens from the Jill Rees line are good. she had an exceptionally long back.

Yes, short backs are part of the problem. I just noticed something else with the British Standard. Their Leghorns are quite different than our Leghorns in type, so saying the body should look like a Leghorn can be a problem....... Since I don't think these will ever look like a APA leghorn, we night want to be low key on the comparison and just go with the description that fits the birds type. The British description of the Legbars type seems to cover the look we have here with the CL's. The last picture of the male here shows that there is not a break of severe angle to the tail. It has a gradual sweep to the tail. That looks more like the Leghorns in both countries.

Walt

 

[ChicKat]

Yes, short backs are part of the problem. I just noticed something else with the British Standard. Their Leghorns are quite different than our Leghorns in type, so saying the body should look like a Leghorn can be a problem....... Since I don't think these will ever look like a APA leghorn, we night want to be low key on the comparison and just go with the description that fits the birds type. The British description of the Legbars type seems to cover the look we have here with the CL's. The last picture of the male here shows that there is not a break of severe angle to the tail. It has a gradual sweep to the tail. That looks more like the Leghorns in both countries.

Walt

Thanks Walt -- part of it is that the breeds do get improved over the years I bet. The most recent picture does look like a more graceful even more healthy cockerel IMO.

And I did find the show points used in the UK for judging Cream Legbars everyone:


SCALE OF POINTS
Type 30
Colour 20
Head 20
Legs 10
Condition 10
Weight 10

100 Points


Serious Defects : Male's comb twisted or falling over. Ear lobes wholly red. Any white in face. Legs other than orange, yellow or light willow. Squirrel tail.
Defects(for which a bird may be passed) : Side sprigs on comb. Eye pupil other than round and clearly defined. Crooked breast. Wry tail. Any bodily deformity.


I don't understand the defects for which a bird may be passed other than they should probably also be a DQ.

whoops I hear thunder I better send this up before my satellite gets obscured. I wanted to highlight in big bold letters that colour is only 20 points out of 100 and you would think with our attention to it that it was 95.

Of course that is UK judging USA may differ.