Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[dretd]

Quote: Roo 1 and father shown next to him


Roo 2 and father shown next to him:



I only have 2 in my flock that are phenotypic cream (they glow a pale yellow color that is impossible to capture on camera) that are also ig/ig genetic cream. Most of my genetic creams are too white looking and most of my genetic split for cream (express gold) are too gold looking.

Both were sired by roosters with serious flaws including squirrel tails and far too light, pink in the ears, wonky crest on one, undersized...the list goes on and on. But in my quest for lemonade, I took the flawed lemons and bred a lot of birds. I know that I can achieve a Cream phenotype paired with a genetic phenotype, they are not mutually exclusive--its just a matter of lots if patience and breeding a lot of birds. Each bird is a step in the right direction on the path to getting an SOP match. I am not there yet and may have to take a few steps back now and again when I make an improvement in one area I may get a worse result in another.

 

[dretd]

Walt--thanks so much for your experienced eye and brain!

You have nailed a big misconception about the Legbar being like the Leghorn--it is but the British version. After comparing the SOPs of all the Mediterranean breeds I have come to the conclusion that the Legbar by far most resembles the Andalusian in type. This is my starting point to breed towards for reference--not the American Leghorn that so many breeders mistakenly look at. How do we correct that problem? I was thinking of writing a newsletter article comparing the types of the Med breeds and showing how the Legbar is closer to the Andalusian but I need pictures and the only ones I have would be from the APA. Do you know how I would go about getting permission from the APA (or if they will give permission) to use a few of their reference photos for a Club Article?

Your help is invaluable to us as we navigate the road to getting the SOP accepted!

 

[ChicKat]

Roo 1 and father shown next to him


Roo 2 and father shown next to him:



I only have 2 in my flock that are phenotypic cream (they glow a pale yellow color that is impossible to capture on camera) that are also ig/ig genetic cream. Most of my genetic creams are too white looking and most of my genetic split for cream (express gold) are too gold looking.

Both were sired by roosters with serious flaws including squirrel tails and far too light, pink in the ears, wonky crest on one, undersized...the list goes on and on. But in my quest for lemonade, I took the flawed lemons and bred a lot of birds. I know that I can achieve a Cream phenotype paired with a genetic phenotype, they are not mutually exclusive--its just a matter of lots if patience and breeding a lot of birds. Each bird is a step in the right direction on the path to getting an SOP match. I am not there yet and may have to take a few steps back now and again when I make an improvement in one area I may get a worse result in another.

Good examples dr. -- seems to me 1. It just goes to show what influence a good hen can have, and 2. It is possible to get to where we need to be color-wise from some colors that don't seem right. How interesting that of your examples the one I think is most CL appropriate is the one in 3rd photo -- It begins to remind me of the Diane Jacky image of CL, and also the most similar to the UK winner in 2014 to my eyes. Now feed some 'Wheaties' to his barring genes so they are more robust, get white earlobes and - way up there.

All joking aside dretd - your work is certainly going in the right direction - and each of us has a lot of work to do on our stock, so you are far from alone there.

 

[chicken pickin]

Hi @dretd
thanks for your posts.

To anyone, can you post examples of a CL rooster with pale buttery hackle and saddle feathers (more matched than mismatched) that does not have a gold wing triangle?

If the wing triangle is the "tell" for gold vs cream, then I think an example as described above could help to set the range of color in the hackle and saddle feathers, i.e. from creamy white to pale buttery.

Conversely, if anyone has examples of a CL rooster with creamy white hackle and saddle feathers (matched) that also has a gold wing triangle, then the discussion has a way to go.

As a side note, does anyone have pictures of a CL rooster with creamy white hackle and saddle feathers, no gold wing triangle, and bright shoulder color? I have only seen much duller and more limited areas of chestnut on the shoulder of the creamy white roos, which follows the genetic discussion that @nicalandia offered earlier in this thread (basically double barring and double cream are powerful diluters of gold and red).

Here is my male that I consider a buttery cream almost matching hackle and saddle and his wing triangle is free of color. I do feel this males hackles are a bit pale and could benefit by having a slightly warmer butter colored hackle. The pictures with the snow as the background really show his color.

 

[KendyF]

Hi Everyone,

In this picture is a 3 month old pullet sold to a friend for the blue eggs. She is a bit darker than my pullets usually turn out. I think her chest goes beyond salmon to chestnut. But I would like your opinions. Obviously the shot is not meant to really show her off, but just a picture my friend sent. Hmm, when I upload the pic here, it doesn't show up as well.

 

[sol2go]

Here is my male that I consider a buttery cream almost matching hackle and saddle and his wing triangle is free of color. I do feel this males hackles are a bit pale and could benefit by having a slightly warmer butter colored hackle. The pictures with the snow as the background really show his color.

I think we have all agreed in the past that he is a fine example of creamy white / pale buttery. I think the pale buttery could be a little stronger and that would be fine too.
The point I am making is that he does not have gold in his wing triangle, and his shoulders are a much more muted chestnut/red.

If gold in the wing triangle is the "tell", then his phenotype would appear to support the genotype of cream. As mentioned by @dretd neither breeders nor judges are going to be testing for ig/ig.

We have seen a lot of examples that do have gold in the wing triangle. And that comes back to the purpose of considering a Crele variation, with gold in the wing triangle, and all of the other colorful attributes.

So although it has been mentioned that color is only one component of scoring for a show bird, there is still an expectation that the colors will fall within a certain range.

 

[chicken pickin]

I think we have all agreed in the past that he is a fine example of creamy white / pale buttery. I think the pale buttery could be a little stronger and that would be fine too.
The point I am making is that he does not have gold in his wing triangle, and his shoulders are a much more muted chestnut/red.

If gold in the wing triangle is the "tell", then his phenotype would appear to support the genotype of cream. As mentioned by @dretd neither breeders nor judges are going to be testing for ig/ig.

We have seen a lot of examples that do have gold in the wing triangle. And that comes back to the purpose of considering a Crele variation, with gold in the wing triangle, and all of the other colorful attributes.

So although it has been mentioned that color is only one component of scoring for a show bird, there is still an expectation that the colors will fall within a certain range.

Sorry I might have misunderstood - I thought you were asking for pics to be posted of males that show matching cream saddle and hackles and lacked color in the wing triangle.

 

[sol2go]

Sorry I might have misunderstood - I thought you were asking for pics to be posted of males that show matching cream saddle and hackles and lacked color in the wing triangle.

No worries, I was just wondering if there are any deviations from the example you posted.
I am also seeing similar characteristics to your roo, most notably the lack of gold in the wing triangle and the muted shoulder. I was surprised how such a colorful shoulder could become so muted, but that is in keeping with @nicalandia 's genetic information for double barring and double cream.

 

[ChicKat]

I think we have all agreed in the past that he is a fine example of creamy white / pale buttery. I think the pale buttery could be a little stronger and that would be fine too.
The point I am making is that he does not have gold in his wing triangle, and his shoulders are a much more muted chestnut/red.

If gold in the wing triangle is the "tell", then his phenotype would appear to support the genotype of cream. As mentioned by @dretd neither breeders nor judges are going to be testing for ig/ig.

We have seen a lot of examples that do have gold in the wing triangle. And that comes back to the purpose of considering a Crele variation, with gold in the wing triangle, and all of the other colorful attributes.

So although it has been mentioned that color is only one component of scoring for a show bird, there is still an expectation that the colors will fall within a certain range.

Perhaps since the DRAFT SOP allows chestnut in 4 locations numerous others who desire more color could have more color and still have a bird that matches the SOP. I don't think that the appearance of other than just B&W in the wing triangle would require an alternative variety. It would be a flaw in the perfect bird -- just like having 5 instead of 6 comb spikes would be a flaw in the perfect bird. ETA, I think a bit more butter would increase the attractiveness of CPs male.

I think when the color is visibly different from across the pen, or across the showing environment -- (often you can't get an across the room view in many shows) then you are getting into another variety.

Also although I think chicken Pickin's chickens are excellent - I don't think that is the only appearance. I think that the chicken that won in the Nationals in UK and the one that is credited to Applegarth are also Cream Colored Cream Legbars. This may be something that Walt referenced by saying he was seeing 4 different variations/colors -- but I'm not sure that the UK winner, the Applegarth bird and the ones that CP has are far enough from the SOP to require a different variety.

 

[caychris]

I have yet to see someone make a definitive statement about if Saddle and Hackles need be same color (regardless of what color they need be)