Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[sol2go]

Perhaps since the DRAFT SOP allows chestnut in 4 locations numerous others who desire more color could have more color and still have a bird that matches the SOP. I don't think that the appearance of other than just B&W in the wing triangle would require an alternative variety. It would be a flaw in the perfect bird -- just like having 5 instead of 6 comb spikes would be a flaw in the perfect bird.

What I get from this statement is that you do not accept the concept that the gold wing triangle is an indication that the rooster lacks two cream genes; or that you accept a rooster which is single for cream.

And why not have a much more saturated crele variety? I feel like trying to blend the two is a disservice to both. The Crele is washed out and the Cream is never really double for cream. The beauty of both is the full impact of their genetics at work. And I do mean beauty.

 

[ChicKat]

This is why I was asking because in addition to defining the color "cream" (which appears to be a range of yellow-ish colors) it is very clear that hackle color and saddle color are independently derived and influenced by different color genetics. (ig/ig does not seem to be enough) to present a cream color in both areas. this is where my chicken genetic newbie starts showing up

I think in addition to all the debate on Cream Color I would also like to understand what is the proper "barring" result we are looking for as some birds while carrying the barring gene seem to have wildly different barring expressions. (Isnt this a result largely based on the barring gene having a sex link property)

Ill be candling 15 eggs in my bator on day 10 tonight. Ill get pics of my adolescents tonight (the eggs come from same stock) and maybe you guys can point out what I have here.

Wish someone closer to me could walk me through some of this looking at real birds.

Good Luck with your hatch!!

Remember that a lot of this information is just now surfacing. People who have been working with the breed are trail-blazers in the sense that the "map" if there is such a thing is the information that we can gather from Punnett. We could be right or wrong on surmises.

Your idea is great -- and will take some time to develop -- I wonder if you would be willing to work on such a documentation. With others, of course..not solo.

Regarding what is the 'correct' barring pattern. Because it is my understanding that Punnett intended the Cream Legbar to be like a Brown Leghorn with barring -- I think thatbecause of the brown Leghorn history would look like gold duckwing (aka wild type) -- with barring added. The gold duckwing is more complex that the sliver duckwing -- basically silver duckwing is a black and white bird. This is the reason that I am personally increasingly drawn to the barring patterns that the duckwing + barring demonstrates in the Leghorns I used for the sample 'what color is cream' chart.

I am beginning to see a definite wing bar - and the breast of the male is barred in a regular fashion - and the tail barring of course. It could be a goal to work toward. IT could be that the Cream Legbar male will be darker breasted than those illustrations. That would swing the appearance more toward the example of the 2014 show winner in UK.

Here is what Punnett said about the Cream Legbar:

"It may be described as a brown Leghorn on a cream basis, to which has been added the barring factor causing it to be autosexing. It is also crested and lays a blue egg" R.C. Punnett 1957

That is one of the reasons that as I see the barring in some of my cockerels begin to organize like the Crele Leghorn barring - I am thinking I will go in that direction.

 

[sol2go]

This is why I was asking because in addition to defining the color "cream" (which appears to be a range of yellow-ish colors) it is very clear that hackle color and saddle color are independently derived and influenced by different color genetics. (ig/ig does not seem to be enough) to present a cream color in both areas. this is where my chicken genetic newbie starts showing up

Previously on this thread @nicalandia has indicated that the double barring and double cream are the key contributors in this breed variety to create "cream" hackles and saddles.

@KPenley has done a lot of research as well.

 

[1muttsfan]

Thanks 1muttsfan, for your opinion. I will post the underlying genetics of each rooster when more people weigh in with their thoughts. Are you a person who looks at the 'Cream' in the Cream Legbar as a genetic state ig/ig or a pale buttery color of a bird?

I think that when showing a birds' appearance, regardless of the genetic basis, is what counts. You only have to look at buff to know how complicated a color can be, and how many ways there are too get there (and what is buff after all but gold?) And for breeders trying to produce consistent offspring, the genetics become very important.

The color description should match the appearance of the actual bird.....not so much what genes are used to create the bird.

X2

When the CL are accepted

When! He says When


Walt

 

[1muttsfan]

I had more to say but my tablet ate my homework

Very intetresting dredt how those sire-son pairs relate, thanks for the photos.

 

[ChicKat]

What I get from this statement is that you do not accept the concept that the gold wing triangle is an indication that the rooster lacks two cream genes; or that you accept a rooster which is single for cream.

And why not have a much more saturated crele variety? I feel like trying to blend the two is a disservice to both. The Crele is washed out and the Cream is never really double for cream. The beauty of both is the full impact of their genetics at work. And I do mean beauty.

This is a good point. During the discussion in this thread, no one stepped up to support a crele, sadly - so it didn't seem to have support. As I have said too, I thought that two SOPs were needed at the beginning of this thread. It seems to me though, that more than just bi-color on wing triangle is going to be needed to define a variety. What of the CLs that have a white wing triangle like some of the ones in dretd's picture list?

Sol2go -- please don't think I'm trying to challenge you LOL - at all -- we can back track way far in this thread and go forward from there, as would be needed to try to move closer to a consensus for people who care about this -- Seems that the problem was what about all the boarder line birds -- and there has to be much more to the CL than the secondaries. If only barred black & white secondaries were the mark of a 'true cream legbar' -- then all the cream could be lost and barred rock (looking) birds would/could be considered as Cream Legbars -- and I think that is what I was concerned would be lost forever if a second SOP wasn't developed (that was at the beginnig - then the non-B&W birds from UK were surfaced, and the UK Nationals took place with a winner that is un-barred Plymouth Rock like.)

Regarding if a CL has 'double' or 'single' cream. If cream is recessive and behaves like a recessive gene - then wouldn't you expect that it would be an all or nothing? Perhaps people are thinking it is a semi-recessive. You will have to pardon me -- because I have only been looking into genetics for about a year...but recessives are as if they don't exist in my understanding of recessive genes...so you have to pair two recessives to even know that they are there. -- Tell me where I am not understanding here.

Cresting is semi-dominant -- so just one cresting gene will look different from two -- same with barring -- but that is a bit different from thinking that there is a semi-recessive I think. I haven't heard of that yet.

Here is my logic... If cream is recessive -- two copies would be needed to have an effect. If a Legbar had only one copy - he would look the same as the Legbar that had none.

Maybe a genetics wizard can straighten me out.

 

[1muttsfan]

Blue has a variable effect on black (and gold), with a single copy diluting black to blue, and a double even further to splash (it also dilutes gold, as found in Lemon Blue). So unfortunately for those of us that are not quick with genes, genes are not just on or off.

 

[ChicKat]

Although for canines, here is a blurb:


It's not always as simple as dominant and recessive

10/31/2014​

​

by Carol Beuchat PhD

One of the first things most breeders learn about genetics is the difference between dominant and recessive alleles. Most people understand that dominant alleles are expressed whether there is one or two copies at a locus, whereas recessive alleles are only expressed if there are two copies of that allele. This clear difference between dominant and recessive expression is certainly true for some genes, but in reality the situation can be much more complex. Perhaps you have heard terms such as "incomplete dominant", "co-dominant", or "semi-dominant". Are these different types of alleles than the basic dominant and recessive? Or is there some other condition that makes these alleles function differently? There is lots of confusion about this, and often people resort to one of the "incomplete", "co-", or "semi-" terms to describe anything that doesn't behave like a simple dominant or recessive. These terms refer to differences in phenotypes, but what's going on at the level of the gene?

Here is a nice little video that explains the complexity of these differences in the expression of genes as phenotypes, from the "Useful Genetics" online course taught by Dr Rosemary Redfield (Univ. British Columbia). She gives a nice explanation of the terms, and explains why the descriptions of gene expression such as "semi" or incomplete" incorrectly imply that these reflect functional differences among genes, when in fact they are only descriptors of phenotype that result from the interactions and relationships among genes.

Spend 15 minutes with this video and clear the fog about dominant and recessive. Enjoy!

If you want to watch the 15 minute video it is here:
http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/its-not-always-as-simple-as-dominant-and-recessive

I have yet to see it.​

ETA just watched it -- LOVE her hair and Dr Rosie Redfield, The University of British Columbia makes it all sound so easy. PERHAPS the colors we are dealing with are more than just two alleles - check out the diagram around 16:30. What a great video.

 

[ChicKat]

I had more to say but my tablet ate my homework

Very intetresting dredt how those sire-son pairs relate, thanks for the photos.

when ever I loose stuff --and it is usually my tablet too -- it has always been stuff that was brilliant and long and in depth - and I can never recreate it...... and don't get me started on what auto correct does to text messages.... LOL

Blue has a variable effect on black (and gold), with a single copy diluting black to blue, and a double even further to splash (it also dilutes gold, as found in Lemon Blue). So unfortunately for those of us that are not quick with genes, genes are not just on or off.

Yes, and I was using the wrong terminology above to help demonstrate my status as a rookie.... the correct term is incomplete dominant.... not semi dominant -- so I found the above while I am trying to find if there is an incomplete recessive...via google.

 

[KPenley]

Hello everyone! I am not here to discuss the alternative varieties, but to hopefully help answer some questions and requests about the cream variety. I hope you all gave a great weekend! Best wishes!

@ sol2go, here is an older pic of Jack since you "called" me LOL ( BYC sends an email when my screen name is mentioned) as an example of very pale butter with some chestnut in the shoulder and gray and cream/white barring in the secondaries.

@caychris, I have skimmed over some of the recent posts so please bear with me if I don't answer your questions fully or repeat what others gave shared.
The hackles and saddle feathers of the cream variety should be close in color (cream barred with grays), though not an exact match. The saddle should actually be a bit lighter since the feathers are edged in cream. The struggle is finding the amazing birds that have gray barring and still retain the cream edges in the saddle.
While not a color to go look at on a chart, the judges in the UK wrote me that cream is "very pale butter". Sure there is room for interpretation, but it is clearly different than buff. ig/ig is inhibitor of gold and it turns all gold in a bird into a lighter color. When you add in the lightening effects of double barring to a cream variety rooster, you end up with a very pale cream color. This does not account for autosomal red though. Ar is just plain crazy. It can make a silver bird look gold and a cream bird look red if there is too much of it. Nice for us is the telltale red shoulder. If your bird has solid red shoulders, eat him. J/K but it means that he has way too much red and/or is lacking gold inhibitors. There can still be many redeeming qualities in a bird with too much red, but be prepared for a long journey if your goal is to breed for the cream crele variety.