Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[chicken pickin]

To start the dicussion - I will post some examples -- Hopefully those who support the really light and those who support the really colorful will weigh in. The one who's saddle is in the previous post, I designated as 'as light as I would ever go' -- so if those of you who are serious about the breed could post your examples of your farthest acceptable to light and your farthest acceptable to colorful -- maybe we could make some progress..... I think Elissa's look-alike is close enough to UK to use that one and then it is depersonalized to a degree. But I think I have to go with chicken pickin's cream in her avatar that is pictured here as the light end, so it can't be depersonalized there. Diane MacDonald's birds are on the website -- and -- di I hear a rumor that she has left Cream Legbars and gone to Ayam Cemani (Betcha they don't argue about color over in that breed...;O) )




looking for a good picture of chicken pickin's rooster to put here...have to be gone for awhile -- but it goes right there.

Here are some parts and pieces though -




also for reference, I think that this is an example of a middle-of-the road CL - from sol2go who was thinking it was gold - but I'm not so sure if we change one word in the SOP that it wouldn't become cream.


And for colorful people, here is a gold for reference:
ETA CP - I think I got the right guy - and if there is a different picture that shows it better -- please let me know!

The 3 pics of mine showing the saddle and wing area above are actually 3 different males. Im not sure if that was what you were going for or not. If you need something specific let me know and I will sort through my pics for you.

 

[ChicKat]

The 3 pics of mine showing the saddle and wing area above are actually 3 different males. Im not sure if that was what you were going for or not. If you need something specific let me know and I will sort through my pics for you.

you are so quick cp!! i edited the post i did

 

[1muttsfan]

I see no reason why establishing a Cream Legbar standard and working towards a more saturated second variety are mutually exclusive. But to get a breed APA registered you have to start somewhere, with ONE variety. The important thing would be that the more colorful birds are not included in the standard FOR NOW. They can always be added as a separate variety at a later date - and those with an interest in them, and working towards it, will have quite a leg up on the breeding and standardization process.

The photos are a great idea - and hopefully will generate lots of opinions. Don't hesitate folks, this is your chance to make your feelings on the subject known.

 

[ChicKat]

I see no reason why establishing a Cream Legbar standard and working towards a more saturated second variety are mutually exclusive. But to get a breed APA registered you have to start somewhere, with ONE variety. The important thing would be that the more colorful birds are not included in the standard FOR NOW. They can always be added as a separate variety at a later date - and those with an interest in them, and working towards it, will have quite a leg up on the breeding and standardization process.

The photos are a great idea - and hopefully will generate lots of opinions. Don't hesitate folks, this is your chance to make your feelings on the subject known.

I'm really curious on where you are designating the more colorful? Could you pinpoint an example?

ETA Oh, I don't think it would detrimental to the Legbar breed forever, I just think splitting eveyone out right now would be. If every Cream Legbar that had other than B&W in the secondaries was excluded from being a CL -- it would also knock out the ones with white unbarred secondaries wouldn't it? And I wonder how many CLs would be left?

 

[chicken pickin]

you are so quick cp!! i edited the post i did

LOL sorry.

 

[1muttsfan]

And for colorful people, here is a gold for reference: and for reference -- here is the color I would propose for the 'colorful' CL -- add a barring gene if it is missing, or strengthen one of the two and it would be 'gold crele' plumage pattern:

I think it would be hard to call the color of this guy a Cream - but he is quite lovely! I would like to see definite double barring too, preserving autosexing and appearance both.

 

[ChicKat]

LOL sorry.

sometimes it takes sooooo long to find something in the threads.....

 

[ChicKat]

I think it would be hard to call the color of this guy a Cream - but he is quite lovely! I would like to see definite double barring too, preserving autosexing and appearance both.

Yes, I would say he would be crele, and is a very striking cockerel that's for sure. It would also fit the criteria that dretd was mentioning of being instantly recognizable as a gold chicken and not a boarder-line one.

 

[1muttsfan]

While I understand the desire to work toward a standard, it would be unrealistic to expect those who prefer a certain look to give up their preference and work on a color they do not prefer. Folks like that are more likely to abandon the breed altogether if pressured to stay in the main group (IMO). There has been a lot of negative pressure already applied regarding this breed and what people like or don't like. They would not be hurting the continued work toward a standard - remember that color is not the only, or even nescessarily the most important, goal for establishing a breed. Body type is critical as well. If you have an excellent type gold bird without cream, you could still use it in a breeding program by breeding in cream - and likely have results in fewer generations than if you took a substandard cream bird and tried to make the type better.

 

[chicken pickin]

While I understand the desire to work toward a standard, it would be unrealistic to expect those who prefer a certain look to give up their preference and work on a color they do not prefer. Folks like that are more likely to abandon the breed altogether if pressured to stay in the main group (IMO). There has been a lot of negative pressure already applied regarding this breed and what people like or don't like. They would not be hurting the continued work toward a standard - remember that color is not the only, or even nescessarily the most important, goal for establishing a breed. Body type is critical as well. If you have an excellent type gold bird without cream, you could still use it in a breeding program by breeding in cream - and likely have results in fewer generations than if you took a substandard cream bird and tried to make the type better.

I don't think anyone is asking people to give up working on what they want to breed towards. Know one is asking any of you to stay in the "main" group. I think you misunderstand or maybe we are not being clear. As we all have mentioned we believe this second variety is possible with a dedicated group of people. It is something that is likely achievable if it is really worked on. We are saying that this new variety needs to be completely distinguishable from the already Cream Legbar, which they aren't, having a little more color and color visible in the wing triangle, that's just not enough to be considered a new variety. What we are proposing is keep working towards what you wish, that is up to you and know one wants to stop any of you from breeding the color you prefer, and certainly know one is asking any of you to breed to a Standard you do not like. I think what many of us breeding to the Cream Standard are hoping is that we can keeping moving forward with the Cream Standard, and get the Cream variety accepted. Sometimes that seems difficult with all this discussion about color, it runs everyone in circles and confuses more people than just us that are currently raising CL.

I think the sentence you say right there highlighted in red also helps clarify that right now only one variety is needed. Gold is part of the Cream variety as well. We all know that the CL showing more color can be used in a Cream breeding program and also a Cream bird can be used in a more colorful flock as well to help bring in the cream. So if these 2 colors can work side by side in the same program to get birds that can look similar in looks to a Cream only flock, how do all of you propose it is a second variety. Just my thought.