Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[KendyF]

I am in over my head in the conversation, but I am learning a lot as we go. So, I have already posted a picture of my rooster which provided me with some great feedback and education. Please forgive as I write my opinion in "lay men's" terms.

If I read the recent comments correctly the APA will not allow a large range of Cream as was previously discussed? Is there agreement on that? Have you decided if cream is buttery yellow or the white looking cream? Or maybe more?

I am once again going to post my rooster, for discussion of his "Cream Hackles, and slightly orange saddle" And chestnut on his wings, with a darker breast.. I would like opinions on YOUR (Various people involved in the Convo) Where he is right (If anywhere) and where he is wrong.

I really need this help to understand if I am on the side of trying to match the current SOP, or to continue a project flock until another color could be approved. So you are the judges and I offer up Sunny for your (mainly color) feedback. I think Sunny is a good example, because locally right now there are 4 Craigslist adds for 25 Dollar day old pullets. They all have pictures of the parents, 3 very similar to mine, with some yellowy orange.. 1 is colored like the 2014 Champion that ChicKat has posted.

Sunny:



My rooster prior to Sunny - Was his color better or worse, (opinions)



One shot of two of my girls, I picked this picture, because I think seeing the color of the hens helps to "see" the shades of my girls.



The reason I want this feedback is to understand what we are talking about here. I am not willing to breed the white and gray legbars. I would like to see color, so that leaves me 3 options for now. As I understand things.
1. Enjoy and Breed my project birds, when I sell them let people know they may not meet the SOP when it is approved if I am selling them.
2. Figure out how to assist with and help bring a second color variety in...
3. Understand if with some work which will not breed out all the color these birds can move towards the standard.

I realize there are type issues with the birds and none of my legs are very yellow. I am just getting more confused regarding color as this conversation goes on. If you have time to help me understand I would sure appreciate it.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi KendyF

To my eye, Sunny is a good example of a CL and a better "color" than your first rooster. If I saw Sunny at a poultry show I would know instantly it was a CL. Much more so than even some CLs offered by very prominent Poultry Importers -- which to my eye are not near to 'pale butter' in hackles and saddles.

Factually if you were told he is wrong because of chestnut shoulders - that is not only allowed by the SOP, some of us will not be without it -- and a guarantee as expressed in the chicken calculator article that gold underlies the coloration. His tail barring is very nice, his chest is dark as the SOP requires. So the persons who told you that he wasn't 'cream' are basing this on saddle feathers and wing triangle, I'm guessing. PM me who this person or these persons are please.

As dretd has said, there would have to be a pretty significant difference between the "correct" CL (let's take the one that won in UK 2014 or Applegarth) and yours, and I certainly don't see a difference that would lead me to think that it is a candidate for a different variety, just the opposite. Again-- do you have any images of what these folks are thinking is 'correct'? I'm kind of baffled.

Of course you and everyone knows that I am biased toward just exactly this type of CL to be a fit to the standard.

Perhaps Walt could weigh in with an APA point of view if it is true that the APA requires an exact match of the saddle and hackles. ??

He looks like a Cream colored Cream Legbar to me. ETA - I think that for perfection the hackles would be more the color of pale butter to be cream.

 

[chicken pickin]

Hi KendyF

To my eye, Sunny is a good example of a CL and a better "color" than your first rooster. If I saw Sunny at a poultry show I would know instantly it was a CL. Much more so than even some CLs offered by very prominent Poultry Importers -- which to my eye are not near to 'pale butter' in hackles and saddles.

Factually if you were told he is wrong because of chestnut shoulders - that is not only allowed by the SOP, some of us will not be without it -- and a guarantee as expressed in the chicken calculator article that gold underlies the coloration. His tail barring is very nice, his chest is dark as the SOP requires. So the persons who told you that he wasn't 'cream' are basing this on saddle feathers and wing triangle, I'm guessing. PM me who this person or these persons are please.

As dretd has said, there would have to be a pretty significant difference between the "correct" CL (let's take the one that won in UK 2014 or Applegarth) and yours, and I certainly don't see a difference that would lead me to think that it is a candidate for a different variety, just the opposite. Again-- do you have any images of what these folks are thinking is 'correct'? I'm kind of baffled.

Of course you and everyone knows that I am biased toward just exactly this type of CL to be a fit to the standard.

Perhaps Walt could weigh in with an APA point of view if it is true that the APA requires an exact match of the saddle and hackles. ??

He looks like a Cream colored Cream Legbar to me. ETA - I think that for perfection the hackles would be more the color of pale butter to be cream.

I agree with everything said above. Even to my eye using just the pic provided, the hens look like good Cream candidates as well. I think your male, again going by just the one picture, that Sunny is a good example of a Cream Legbar, depending on your goals I think only a few small things need to be corrected (If he were mine I would try to lessen the amount of chestnut in the saddle and wing triangle just a bit).

You should be proud this flock you have here, not made to feel like they are wrong. They just need a little bit of work just like everyones CL flocks.

 

[KendyF]

Hi KendyF

To my eye, Sunny is a good example of a CL and a better "color" than your first rooster. If I saw Sunny at a poultry show I would know instantly it was a CL. Much more so than even some CLs offered by very prominent Poultry Importers -- which to my eye are not near to 'pale butter' in hackles and saddles.

Factually if you were told he is wrong because of chestnut shoulders - that is not only allowed by the SOP, some of us will not be without it -- and a guarantee as expressed in the chicken calculator article that gold underlies the coloration. His tail barring is very nice, his chest is dark as the SOP requires. So the persons who told you that he wasn't 'cream' are basing this on saddle feathers and wing triangle, I'm guessing. PM me who this person or these persons are please.

As dretd has said, there would have to be a pretty significant difference between the "correct" CL (let's take the one that won in UK 2014 or Applegarth) and yours, and I certainly don't see a difference that would lead me to think that it is a candidate for a different variety, just the opposite. Again-- do you have any images of what these folks are thinking is 'correct'? I'm kind of baffled.

Of course you and everyone knows that I am biased toward just exactly this type of CL to be a fit to the standard.

Perhaps Walt could weigh in with an APA point of view if it is true that the APA requires an exact match of the saddle and hackles. ??

He looks like a Cream colored Cream Legbar to me. ETA - I think that for perfection the hackles would be more the color of pale butter to be cream.

Thank you very much both for your opinion, and keeping it down to my level. I hope I get more feedback. Regarding the "other rooster' labeled as my first rooster, his color is too dark? And too much Chestnut? Which is why I selected Sunny over him. Most of the feedback I received was on the FB group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/510082059102247/ ... I know, I know... You don't use FB. LOL. I was basically told if he doesn't meet the standard (and in their opinion he didn't" I have a responsibility to cull him. lol, I admit this person is pretty extreme. Will send a name PM. But their were others who agreed. It was at that point I started the Crele Lebar thread here on backyardchicken.com Because people do not say... In my opinion, they lay it down like it a law! lol. To give credit, Sunny came from FMP, and he was not FMP's fav. But I felt he was an upgrade to mine. I will continue to try to improve my birds, for type, leg color etc as this all gets figured out. I will not attempt to make my birds look white.

 

[chicken pickin]

The Cream Legbar male I started with a few years back In my opinion was gorgeous, I loved just about everything about him. This male just had a little too much color to be correct with the standard. I still used this male in my breeding program as my mian cock and he produced some fantastic offspring. Again goes to show that the colorful birds can be kept and used in a breeding program for Cream and still get good results. I chose to breed away from the chestnut but not everyone needs to do that, that was my personal choice. Find a balance that works for you. Find that colorful bird that still matches the Standard, don't be discouraged if others tell you that you are wrong, keep breeding and researching and asking questions until you feel you have gotten accurate information. And breed forward to what makes you happy.

This was my first male

 

[chicken pickin]

Thank you very much both for your opinion, and keeping it down to my level. I hope I get more feedback. Regarding the "other rooster' labeled as my first rooster, his color is too dark? And too much Chestnut? Which is why I selected Sunny over him. Most of the feedback I received was on the FB group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/510082059102247/ ... I know, I know... You don't use FB. LOL. I was basically told if he doesn't meet the standard (and in their opinion he didn't" I have a responsibility to cull him. lol, I admit this person is pretty extreme. Will send a name PM. But their were others who agreed. It was at that point I started the Crele Lebar thread here on backyardchicken.com Because people do not say... In my opinion, they lay it down like it a law! lol. To give credit, Sunny came from FMP, and he was not FMP's fav. But I felt he was an upgrade to mine. I will continue to try to improve my birds, for type, leg color etc as this all gets figured out. I will not attempt to make my birds look white.

I don't think that your male is a cull, Im glad you didn't listen to the ones telling you that that was the case, I think he can be extremely beneficial to your breeding program, he has some great qualities. And I think many of us agree that white is too much of an extreme of the light end.

 

[1muttsfan]

I am glad to follow this discussion, it has many topics that are interesting to consider. I will answer your points, if we can agree to disagree on some -

I think you misunderstand or maybe we are not being clear.

Perhaps not - or maybe I was not clear. I was hoping that there would be free discussion of alternative colors.

this new variety needs to be completely distinguishable from the already Cream Legbar, which they aren't, having a little more color and color visible in the wing triangle, that's just not enough to be considered a new variety.

A bird lacking cream is clearly different in color from those with two copies, as several pictures have demonstrated.

So if these 2 colors can work side by side in the same program to get birds that can look similar in looks to a Cream only flock, how do all of you propose it is a second variety.

Maybe think of some other similar colors that have been accepted - like light brown and cream light brown Dutch, or brown red and lemon blue game birds. And sometimes other colors are used to help programs in other breeds, as black can be used in self-blue breeding programs to improve type.

 

[caychris]

Ok from reading what Walt wrote. It looks like there are a couple of points that need to be addressed in the language (ie definition of the words) with regard to the APA

1) Cream - This definition should fall in line with the accepted definition of the British Standard Pale butter is a horrible description.

2) Reference to Leghorn type should be made clear that we are speaking of the British Leghorn. (My preference is to ensure we remove all Leghorn shortcut references) as to avoid confusion.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Good golly! I leave for vacation for 3 days and you folks go post crazy! My cockerel that was posted is for sure only carrying 1 copy of cream. I get cream birds every year but never kept any just because I love colorful birds more. I should have some pure cream legbars hatching soon and I plan to keep a pure pen of them but also do some matings with my split birds. I think what I may end up doing is to keep split males with gold and cream females just to get both varieties like some of the black/lavender breeders do. I have a bantam phoenix cockerel growing out that is out of a silver hen and a single barred crele male. His hackle is a pale butter color with barring and his saddle is orange. I also had a cockerel from my silver autosexing EE hen mated to a legbar male. He didn't look like he would have any color in his wingbow and his hackle/saddle were matching cream color but he lacked cream. I culled him due to a curled toe. As others have said- show birds are just based on phenotype so I could make a bird like that and show it as a cream evem though it lacks it and still win. Just like the whites- I could easily breed a white leghorn to some legbars and get a legbar typed bird with pure white plumage, then show it against the recessive whites and do just as good.

 

[ChicKat]

I don't think that your male is a cull, Im glad you didn't listen to the ones telling you that that was the case, I think he can be extremely beneficial to your breeding program, he has some great qualities. And I think many of us agree that white is too much of an extreme of the light end.

X2 just imagine if everyone listened to such a set of instructions, IMO that would be that would be so damaging to the breed. It is kind of amusing when you look at it (again IMO) - that whom ever is telling someone to cull a bird based upon a photo - what I fail to understand is why those of us with 'colorful birds' -- don't zoom around for a few years telling them to cull theirs...lol