Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Good golly! I leave for vacation for 3 days and you folks go post crazy! My cockerel that was posted is for sure only carrying 1 copy of cream. I get cream birds every year but never kept any just because I love colorful birds more. I should have some pure cream legbars hatching soon and I plan to keep a pure pen of them but also do some matings with my split birds. I think what I may end up doing is to keep split males with gold and cream females just to get both varieties like some of the black/lavender breeders do. I have a bantam phoenix cockerel growing out that is out of a silver hen and a single barred crele male. His hackle is a pale butter color with barring and his saddle is orange. I also had a cockerel from my silver autosexing EE hen mated to a legbar male. He didn't look like he would have any color in his wingbow and his hackle/saddle were matching cream color but he lacked cream. I culled him due to a curled toe. As others have said- show birds are just based on phenotype so I could make a bird like that and show it as a cream evem though it lacks it and still win. Just like the whites- I could easily breed a white leghorn to some legbars and get a legbar typed bird with pure white plumage, then show it against the recessive whites and do just as good.

That's great, but as stated earlier -- you could do a one-time mix of genetics that could 'win in a show' -- but you couldn't call it a breed exactly...it would be a mix. Most folks working with a breed want the chick's mama and papa to be from the same breed. nicalandia long ago said he would start with a silver duckwing to get a cream -- IMO to discourage people from running to imposters, all the more reason to empasize the richness of cream as a color unlike silver.

So the bottom line is - you could do it -- but what would be the point? Wouldn't you loose (with some of those pairings) autosexing, blue eggs, and crests? (or at least one cresting gene)

So Sunny is one that you took out of your flock because his color is too light for your plans - and KendyF is being told that it is too dark for a CL - if I am understanding correctly. It would be very interesting to know about the parents of the bird. My take would be that someone who wanted to raise Cream Legbars would be far better off with the bird that KendyF has than they would with any of the combinations that you are proposing for your show winners. ;O)

Welcome back from vacation.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Kendy's rooster is the full brother to my male that was posted earlier, his tail was just a little too high for my preference. Their mother is Ingrid, my original GFF hen and their father is also their brother (ingrid is the mother, father was my original rooster), both parents are not cream but should carry it. I am always a firm believer that type comes first! I am building my ideal frame before I worry about color but I do have some better barred non-cream pullets growing out now.
I am in no rush to see the breed in the standard. Sure I am anxious for it to happen but I feel that they have a while to go before they are ready just because the type of all legbars in the US is still all over the place. For a while it seemed like folks had similar birds but then the Rees birds came out and messed it all up.

Here is Ingrid. She is a massive bird.

 

[ChicKat]

Kendy's rooster is the full brother to my male that was posted earlier, his tail was just a little too high for my preference. Their mother is Ingrid, my original GFF hen and their father is also their brother (ingrid is the mother, father was my original rooster), both parents are not cream but should carry it. I am always a firm believer that type comes first! I am building my ideal frame before I worry about color but I do have some better barred non-cream pullets growing out now.
I am in no rush to see the breed in the standard. Sure I am anxious for it to happen but I feel that they have a while to go before they are ready just because the type of all legbars in the US is still all over the place. For a while it seemed like folks had similar birds but then the Rees birds came out and messed it all up.

Here is Ingrid. She is a massive bird.

ingrid is nice...and I think that type is far more important and needs a lot of work -- but people can not seem to focus on type because of color. What about Ingrid and you other cockerel designate them as non-cream... I'm still trying to grasp it here...she looks quite cream to my eye.

Also did they both haave crests?

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

ingrid is nice...and I think that type is far more important and needs a lot of work -- but people can not seem to focus on type because of color.  What about Ingrid and you other cockerel designate them as non-cream... I'm still trying to grasp it here...she looks quite cream to my eye.  

Also did they both haave crests?

Both have small crests but produce small to silkie sized crests in their chicks. When she stands next to my light brown leghorn hens, their hackle is close to the same shade but hers is a smidge lighter. Males are similar- if you see a legbar male like mine next to a light brown leghorn male, the shade is similar. When outcrossing to leghorns, if my legbars had been cream, their mixed offspring should be darker than their legbar counterparts because they would be lacking cream but they are the same and some of the mixes have lighter hackle than the pure legbar hens.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

To start the dicussion - I will post some examples -- Hopefully those who support the really light and those who support the really colorful will weigh in. The one who's saddle is in the previous post, I designated as 'as light as I would ever go' -- so if those of you who are serious about the breed could post your examples of your farthest acceptable to light and your farthest acceptable to colorful -- maybe we could make some progress..... I think Elissa's look-alike is close enough to UK to use that one and then it is depersonalized to a degree. But I think I have to go with chicken pickin's cream in her avatar that is pictured here as the light end, so it can't be depersonalized there. Diane MacDonald's birds are on the website -- and -- did I hear a rumor that she has left Cream Legbars and gone to Ayam Cemani (Betcha they don't argue about color over in that breed...;O) )




ETA CP - I think I got the right guy - and if there is a different picture that shows it better -- please let me know!


also for reference, I think that this is an example of a middle-of-the road CL - from sol2go who was thinking it was gold - but I'm not so sure if we change one word in the SOP that it wouldn't become cream.






so please weigh in on your views. Also if you read this thread it is suggested that the Applegarth pair would be the reference point to say -- lighter than or darker than...or however the correct terminology has evloved. THANKS!!!

Chickat, thanks for going ahead and posting pictures. I know it can be hard to use examples without potentially offending someone. I am having a hard time collecting pictures so I am going to cheat and just use the ones you posted. I think pics 1, 3, and 4 are what I consider the "ideal range" of color. With 4 being on the light end. I feel that 5 followed by 2 would be on the most colorful end.

I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

 

[fowlman01]

Chickat, thanks for going ahead and posting pictures. I know it can be hard to use examples without potentially offending someone. I am having a hard time collecting pictures so I am going to cheat and just use the ones you posted. I think pics 1, 3, and 4 are what I consider the "ideal range" of color. With 4 being on the light end. I feel that 5 followed by 2 would be on the most colorful end.

I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

I agree.

Walt

 

[1muttsfan]

Chickat, thanks for going ahead and posting pictures.

I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

I agree as well.

 

[ChicKat]

Chickat, thanks for going ahead and posting pictures. I know it can be hard to use examples without potentially offending someone. I am having a hard time collecting pictures so I am going to cheat and just use the ones you posted. I think pics 1, 3, and 4 are what I consider the "ideal range" of color. With 4 being on the light end. I feel that 5 followed by 2 would be on the most colorful end.

I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

I'm going to start a BuffyBugSlayer for president campaign! you are getting a lot of agreement with your view. ETA - someone took this in a way different that I meant it -- and took offense.... I meant president of the USA since campaign is in the news.... Which would be a tough fate because regardless of political party, have you noticed that all the presidents lately leave off ice with gray hair. -- I would hope that people don't loose track of their sense of humor -- and don't take any offense where none is meant to be given. Sorry if anyone took offense.

When you say this:
I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

That reflects the conclusion I came to a few hundred posts back. Not to say that for someone who wants a truly gold bird (with a brown aka gold wing triangle) -- then with enough interest - it could at some future point become a candidate for a different variety.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

I'm going to start a BuffyBugSlayer for president campaign!  you are getting a lot of agreement with your view.  
:yiipchick  

When you say this:
[COLOR=0000FF]I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off. [/COLOR]

That reflects the conclusion I came to a few hundred posts back.  Not to say that for someone who wants a truly gold bird (with a brown aka gold wing triangle) -- then with enough interest - it could at some future point become a candidate for a different variety. 

Here Here! Except for the president part. I can barely run myself most days.

 

[caychris]

Im in agreement too. When I think of more colorful varieties I think of Chestnut expansion (encouragement) I think moving to Gold or Silver in either case is probably something that is more easily recognized but then they would probably not be outwardly distinguished from a Gold or Silver Legbar (especially the males) the cresting seems to be weak in some lines and would further blur the lines between the blue egg layers and the white egg laying Legbars.

Have to remember that Cream are the ones who lay the blue eggs. If you are wanting a blue egg laying Gold Legbar that is a different animal. I suppose you could start with a different colored bird than buff/cream that Punnett used for the blue gene and just go back to Gold Legbar and shoot for another variety all together. (I think I remember them saying silvers may be all but extinct)