- Thread starter
- #871
SUMMARY 3 - part 1
You folks can talk about it, you can teach it and you can argue about it, but the bottom line is that people don't know what they are dealing with in terms of the genetic makeup of their birds. Some have had these for a good while now, but it takes several years to find out what these birds are really carrying. You first need to have your five APA members lined up, then decide on one color Standard. There is some flexibility, so it does not have to match the British Standard exactly...but we would need a compelling reason why it is different. There are many examples of differences in the APA Standard and the country of origins Standard. So, we can be somewhat flexible. Try for one color version first......so you will need to decide that at some point.
and here is an observation from KazJaps in classroom in the coop:
this is in answer to the idea that in UK a test pairing has proved that a silver-looking cockerel is actually gold. The cockerel could have been gold - but the testing method used was very un-scientific and the results are totally unreliable.
Also, it seems that F1 pullet is gold diluted. This is what I was getting at - you can't make any conclusions from that cross about any possible phaeomelanin diluters. Is she gold diluted because of the B gene (like my Crele hens), or because the father has a dominant phaeomelanin diluter, or because both father & mother have the same recessive phaeomelanin diluter? Or could there be combinations of genes now segregating out (eg both phaeomelanin intensifiers & diluters)? It doesn't substantiate any of these questions. Much more test breeding is needed.
From this Link:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=109342&page=3
posts 109216 - and posts both before and after.
A true test would require probably establishing the mutations (genes that vary from wild-type) in both parent birds, and that would require a lot of work with Red Jungle Fowl and both parent birds - a lot of growing out - possibly multiple generations - just to establish how the parent birds differed from RJF. No one has done this to my knowledge… So any test pairing that has been done - has started with assumptions that could or could not be correct.
The judging is for the CL phenotype -- and THAT is verifiable whereas the underlying genetics are not. The appearance of the bird in the show cage is what can be judged.
If someone builds a Cream Legbar Look-alike and puts it in a Poultry show as a Cream Legbar - they could possibly win (over genetic Cream Legbars) -- When people were proposing this, and some found it a horrifying example - I think their idea was to introduce Silver genetics - perhaps a silver duckwing to the CL -- to eliminate that pesky “gold”. -- The problem is - for that approach - the CL isn’t truly silver. We are told that the color is different but difficult to photo. The best example of this is the chickens that chicken pickin’ has posted that show cream.
There are also photos that show cream visible in the photo. Those proposing some outcrosses - may get to the look of a Cream Legbar - but they may not - And they would probably struggle with crests, blue eggs, autosexing, and other Cream Legbar traits -and wouldn’t actually have the breed. So why lose many of the advantages of the breed for many years. Especially since we don’t know what is truly under the hood. My male has hackles that vary in color with the exposure to UV rays. My cockerel (and many others) could actually have silver -- and he isn’t perfect - and some people would want to ‘cull’ him -- It’s possible that silver got into the mix inadverntly in the UK - and many CL are split - and it is possible that they are all s+/s+
. The established look of a CL is what is being judged. IMO the CL is the best route to get there but there could be other routes. It will be difficult enough to get a CL using the lines we have that is close to the SOP -- and in someways I think that many who think popping another gene into the mix -- really don't realize the complexity and the implications. To get cream - requires a warm tone that introduction of certain other easy-street genes may not produce.
there is a lot more -- there were a lot of pages that elapsed since the second summary.... Feel free, please to weigh in - on these or other observations in the thread...and yes there is subjectivity here -- hence the aspiration to use valid authorities and quotes.
- seems that it is pretty well understood that we don’t know ALL the underlying genetics and the effect they will have on our Cream Legbars (especially male)
You folks can talk about it, you can teach it and you can argue about it, but the bottom line is that people don't know what they are dealing with in terms of the genetic makeup of their birds. Some have had these for a good while now, but it takes several years to find out what these birds are really carrying. You first need to have your five APA members lined up, then decide on one color Standard. There is some flexibility, so it does not have to match the British Standard exactly...but we would need a compelling reason why it is different. There are many examples of differences in the APA Standard and the country of origins Standard. So, we can be somewhat flexible. Try for one color version first......so you will need to decide that at some point.
and here is an observation from KazJaps in classroom in the coop:
this is in answer to the idea that in UK a test pairing has proved that a silver-looking cockerel is actually gold. The cockerel could have been gold - but the testing method used was very un-scientific and the results are totally unreliable.
Also, it seems that F1 pullet is gold diluted. This is what I was getting at - you can't make any conclusions from that cross about any possible phaeomelanin diluters. Is she gold diluted because of the B gene (like my Crele hens), or because the father has a dominant phaeomelanin diluter, or because both father & mother have the same recessive phaeomelanin diluter? Or could there be combinations of genes now segregating out (eg both phaeomelanin intensifiers & diluters)? It doesn't substantiate any of these questions. Much more test breeding is needed.
From this Link:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=109342&page=3
posts 109216 - and posts both before and after.
A true test would require probably establishing the mutations (genes that vary from wild-type) in both parent birds, and that would require a lot of work with Red Jungle Fowl and both parent birds - a lot of growing out - possibly multiple generations - just to establish how the parent birds differed from RJF. No one has done this to my knowledge… So any test pairing that has been done - has started with assumptions that could or could not be correct.
- It really doesn’t matter in the show cage what the underlying genetics ARE.
The judging is for the CL phenotype -- and THAT is verifiable whereas the underlying genetics are not. The appearance of the bird in the show cage is what can be judged.
If someone builds a Cream Legbar Look-alike and puts it in a Poultry show as a Cream Legbar - they could possibly win (over genetic Cream Legbars) -- When people were proposing this, and some found it a horrifying example - I think their idea was to introduce Silver genetics - perhaps a silver duckwing to the CL -- to eliminate that pesky “gold”. -- The problem is - for that approach - the CL isn’t truly silver. We are told that the color is different but difficult to photo. The best example of this is the chickens that chicken pickin’ has posted that show cream.
There are also photos that show cream visible in the photo. Those proposing some outcrosses - may get to the look of a Cream Legbar - but they may not - And they would probably struggle with crests, blue eggs, autosexing, and other Cream Legbar traits -and wouldn’t actually have the breed. So why lose many of the advantages of the breed for many years. Especially since we don’t know what is truly under the hood. My male has hackles that vary in color with the exposure to UV rays. My cockerel (and many others) could actually have silver -- and he isn’t perfect - and some people would want to ‘cull’ him -- It’s possible that silver got into the mix inadverntly in the UK - and many CL are split - and it is possible that they are all s+/s+
. The established look of a CL is what is being judged. IMO the CL is the best route to get there but there could be other routes. It will be difficult enough to get a CL using the lines we have that is close to the SOP -- and in someways I think that many who think popping another gene into the mix -- really don't realize the complexity and the implications. To get cream - requires a warm tone that introduction of certain other easy-street genes may not produce.
- The SOP in the UK and the DRAFT SOP in the USA use Cream as the color description.
there is a lot more -- there were a lot of pages that elapsed since the second summary.... Feel free, please to weigh in - on these or other observations in the thread...and yes there is subjectivity here -- hence the aspiration to use valid authorities and quotes.
So, I for one want to see the color debate continued and resolved. I do not like the "White" look. I want these bright, sunny birds in my flock. (I know it is not all about me) 
I won't be breeding any "White" looking Cream Birds. 
