Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

It has been stated here, how little of a great chicken is about the color. However, this conversation is regarding potential color, comb, "Alternatives:... Or do we need/want Alternatives. So, I for one want to see the color debate continued and resolved. I do not like the "White" look. I want these bright, sunny birds in my flock. (I know it is not all about me)

In my happy place I also want them to have an SOP. If they don't... I will have a nice project breed. I won't be breeding any "White" looking Cream Birds. No offense meant to anyone, just personal preferences. I am okay with the look of the 2014 UK Rooster, but only as a meet in the middle compromise, but not as a preference.

The GFF "gold, crele, whatever" birds are everywhere. Here is today's listing of Cream Legbars from Spokane's Craigslist. Take a look at the pictures. I am pretty sure this is going on in Everycity, USA,

http://spokane.craigslist.org/search/sss?sort=rel&query=legbar,

Go to your local Craigslist page, search "Legbar" and post the link, so we can see what is out there being bred, sold and already establishing the look and color of the breed.

Happy Friday Everyone.

There are 3 in Houston and near by search area
http://houston.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=Legbar&sort=rel

6 in Austin and near by
http://austin.craigslist.org/search...49&nearbyArea=564&nearbyArea=270&query=legbar

Zero in Beaumont /Port Arthur
2 in San Antonio
http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/se...84&nearbyArea=564&query=Legbar&searchNearby=1

but the SA ones are the same person by the looks of it. That trio looks like a really good deal actually $75. - That one hen with the small small comb and the gray-and-white crest.....

Happy Friday back to you.

Good thought that the color debate could be resolved. One can always hope!

 

[ChicKat]

As a heads up.....most of the people selling CL's are not paying attention to type or color. They are just cranking them out as they are easy to sell.....so be careful what pictures you use to represent the breed. After all this time it should be pretty evident who is serious and who is just going for the money.

Everyone online who has chickens is called a breeder these days. I don't call them that, as I only know about 20 real breeders and most of them do not post online. This is a new breed here and it is far too complicated for the average beginner to make improvements. There are some folks that are taking this very seriously though and I have seen improvement from them.

Read the British Standard and see what they have done. Standards always leave some leeway so that the breeders can have their own bird that breeds fairly consistent to the Standard and has their "genetic mark" on them. The genetic mark is a color or type bird that is only seen in one persons birds. It will be a very small difference, but recognizable as being bred by that person.

The APA will allow for some differences in how the birds look color wise, but not a lot of difference in the body type. IMO the core group chosen to be the one of five breeders that submit the breeding documents, need to have a lot of input into how the Standard is written. They will be here in 5 years but many of the others giving input will not even have chickens in five years. People stay in chickens for about 2-3 years and then they are off to something else.

Walt

Shortly after people here were involved with CLs - Walt made a prediction that people will start to cross CL with everything and try to get a frizzled CL and a naked-neck CL (or something that seemed funny and far fetched at that time, however it came true) - and I see that I'm 50 posts behind in the CL Hybrid thread -- but it's something that Walt predicted people would do and it happened like the fields of wildflowers sprouting in the spring. Maybe it is time to undsubscribe there...it is too much. ;O)

I think that the folks who want to support and preserve Cream Legbars are interested in being someone who would submit an affidavit for breeding for 5-years - but a lot happens in 5-years that's for sure.

 

[caychris]

Shortly after people here were involved with CLs - Walt made a prediction that people will start to cross CL with everything and try to get a frizzled CL and a naked-neck CL (or something that seemed funny and far fetched at that time, however it came true) - and I see that I'm 50 posts behind in the CL Hybrid thread -- but it's something that Walt predicted people would do and it happened like the fields of wildflowers sprouting in the spring. Maybe it is time to undsubscribe there...it is too much. ;O)

I think that the folks who want to support and preserve Cream Legbars are interested in being someone who would submit an affidavit for breeding for 5-years - but a lot happens in 5-years that's for sure.

While I am interested in a Hybrid to improve the blue egg color, (Ark Blue Egg Layers) I want to start with really good CLB. My ultimate goal with the hybrid would be a good dual purpose bird but I want to have good starting stock whenever working on a new hybrid, so helping this breed comes first. The birds are teaching me patience because for all my plans the birds still need to cooperate. Still having a hard time hatching breeding stock for this breed.

 

[BuffyBugSlayer]

I guess I really don't have a problem with people making hybrids. I hatched out some sex link hybrids this year and people loved them. I didn't advertise them as Cream Legbar hybrids though, I sold them as sex links that lay green eggs.

I am also offering Easter Eggers from my Cream Legbar male and people love them. I don't offer them as Cream Legbar hybrids. I have yet to sell any of my Cream Legbars, because I don't think they are worthy of selling right now.

Personally, I think you can do both and still be serious about the breed. I think they are a great project and I am not interested in making a quick buck on them. It would be great if sellers were more educated and more serious about the breed but I just don't see how they can be stopped. This isn't a new thing in animal selling.

Lots of people buy and sell horses because they have floofy hair and are a pretty color!

Those that are serious about Cream Legbars will continue to do what they are doing and it will all come out in the wash, imo.

 

[1muttsfan]

To me the major difference in the two birds in those pictures is the barring - bird two has much more distinctive, clearer barring.

Thanks again Walt. Looks like my timer is about up, I am approaching 5 years with chickens! I did tell my boyfriend that if we do end up moving to Florida, the chickens were going with us

 

[ChicKat]

I guess I really don't have a problem with people making hybrids. I hatched out some sex link hybrids this year and people loved them. I didn't advertise them as Cream Legbar hybrids though, I sold them as sex links that lay green eggs.

I am also offering Easter Eggers from my Cream Legbar male and people love them. I don't offer them as Cream Legbar hybrids. I have yet to sell any of my Cream Legbars, because I don't think they are worthy of selling right now.

Personally, I think you can do both and still be serious about the breed. I think they are a great project and I am not interested in making a quick buck on them. It would be great if sellers were more educated and more serious about the breed but I just don't see how they can be stopped. This isn't a new thing in animal selling.

Lots of people buy and sell horses because they have floofy hair and are a pretty color!

Those that are serious about Cream Legbars will continue to do what they are doing and it will all come out in the wash, imo.

glad you wrote this - because I also have hybrids -- and part of the hybrid activity was checking up on cresting and finding out the results...so what I wrote probably came across much more negative than I meant it. Sometimes that happens. Good points about selling too....I want to see that floofy haired horse in a pretty color. ;O)

To me the major difference in the two birds in those pictures is the barring - bird two has much more distinctive, clearer barring.

Thanks again Walt. Looks like my timer is about up, I am approaching 5 years with chickens! I did tell my boyfriend that if we do end up moving to Florida, the chickens were going with us

You can always reset the clock too! And then the folks who divest of chickens often want them back. U.P. to FL? what a switch....

 

[ChicKat]

To me the major difference in the two birds in those pictures is the barring - bird two has much more distinctive, clearer barring.

Thanks again Walt. Looks like my timer is about up, I am approaching 5 years with chickens! I did tell my boyfriend that if we do end up moving to Florida, the chickens were going with us

Okay - good observation - and it was you (I think) - who said that you wanted to see the heritage of the ancestor birds in the CL - and now I'm also looking for that. -- going back to good-old - 'How much is that gold diluted?' chart:

I'm really starting to look for the underlying duck-wing pattern.... (because I think it looks very good)--- And bird 2 does show it better than bird 1. The dark bar across the wing for one thing. I think the 'classic' CLs in things that were published pre 2013 - tend to show that look more than bird 1 does.






Because of all that goes on inside, I doubt that we would ever get to the artist-rendering of Crele look -

This pair is one of mine -=- where I first began to notice the wing-bar taking shape. He got mean and is now a pelt, but there may be the ability there to get that barring to look more organized. Long way to go etc...etc.

Just think we haven't even argued er discussed the female coloration yet... and there may still be some type work to have the people who raise the bird agree on.!!

ETA, my guys short back and high tail are the things I like least about him (well his bad disposition worse that looks I guess). He was to weight and if you use the chick weight tracking chart - for his age he is one of the heaviest chicks there for his age..."Corrigan" - To my eye his saddle is closer to cream than his hackles - but his gray is a nice definite gray color.

 

[ChicKat]

............................................

Everyone online who has chickens is called a breeder these days. I don't call them that, as I only know about 20 real breeders and most of them do not post online. This is a new breed here and it is far too complicated for the average beginner to make improvements. There are some folks that are taking this very seriously though and I have seen improvement from them.

.......................................

Walt

The term 'breeder' is used pretty loosely now-a-days... Here is a quote that I think is so apropos:

1." not one man in a thousand has accuracy of eye and judgement sufficient to become an eminent breeder. If gifted with these qualities, and he studies his subject for years, and devotes his lifetime to it with indomitable perseverance, he will succeed, and may make great improvements; if he wants any of these qualities he will assuredly fail."... and
2."indomitable patience, the finest powers of discrimination, and sound judgement must be exercised during many years. A clearly predetermined object must be kept steadily in view. Few men are endowed with all these qualities, especially that of discriminating very slight differences; judgment can be acquired only by long experience; but if any of these qualities be wanting, the labor of a life may be thrown away."

Charles Darwin
1. The Origin of Species 1897, p 22
2. The Variation of Animals and Plants Under Domestication 1868 vol.2 p.193

These references are from "The Theory and Practice of Breeding to Type" by C.J. Davies....1928

The one thing I have to a degree from that is :
A clearly predetermined object must be kept steadily in view.


There are a few of you on this thread that can make those fine discriminations - I would say among others Kristin, Jane, BBS, 1Mutts - and all of you who have pointed out things I don't see. I think dretd has a super eye for type - and she can't not see it. dretd is the one who researched the breeds and said that the type is more Andalusian-like -- and then cooincidentally Sam Brush, the APA judge who evaluated the Texas State Fair bird that the 4H kids put in kind of said the same thing... that they are like Andalusians... Kpenely tells us how she has that template in her coop of the type -- and what better way to keep it constantly in view.

The predetermined object in picture form is what a lot of people seem to be clamoring for, and we do have the UK winners to reference, I think the major push back occurs when someone insists that their per-determined object the the 'genetically correct' or 'to standard' version - when there is no substantiation beyond a personal preference. It seems that 'interpret to the best of your ability' - and then when someone says 'what do you think of my CL' only to get a response 'that's not a CL', or 'that's not to standard ' -- with no reason why is were friction occurs.

 

[caychris]

Ill have pics of my birds tonight plus my new chicks (so far 2 boys)

I know I will have lots of work to do on these because my current boys have wry tail. Im thinking of breeding one of them this year once he hits an age that he will be likely fertile to my older hen and see if I can hatch some from her and maybe increase my flock sooner.

I will probably breed the brown girl too and see where that goes (genetic diversity and all)

 

[KendyF]

As a heads up.....most of the people selling CL's are not paying attention to type or color. They are just cranking them out as they are easy to sell.....so be careful what pictures you use to represent the breed. After all this time it should be pretty evident who is serious and who is just going for the money.

Everyone online who has chickens is called a breeder these days. I don't call them that, as I only know about 20 real breeders and most of them do not post online. This is a new breed here and it is far too complicated for the average beginner to make improvements. There are some folks that are taking this very seriously though and I have seen improvement from them.

Read the British Standard and see what they have done. Standards always leave some leeway so that the breeders can have their own bird that breeds fairly consistent to the Standard and has their "genetic mark" on them. The genetic mark is a color or type bird that is only seen in one persons birds. It will be a very small difference, but recognizable as being bred by that person.

The APA will allow for some differences in how the birds look color wise, but not a lot of difference in the body type. IMO the core group chosen to be the one of five breeders that submit the breeding documents, need to have a lot of input into how the Standard is written. They will be here in 5 years but many of the others giving input will not even have chickens in five years. People stay in chickens for about 2-3 years and then they are off to something else.

Walt

Thank you Walt, this was a mind clearing perspective for me to view and it makes perfect sense from the APA, point of view, which is what we are talking about here.

I have a different perspective, which is not relevant to the SOP. I do not consider myself a breeder, I consider myself a "Hobby Farmer". I do sell my chickens with complete disclosure as to what they are, how they live, how they reproduce and what stage the breed is in. New, all over the board, and In the process of seeking APA approval. I provide my chickens with the best feed, healthy conditions, clean water, and plenty of space. After all, I eat them and their by-products, and I sell them to others. I deplore factory farming for the health of the chickens, the value of the food, as well as their welfare. However, I am not a freak about saving all animals.I don't sell my chickens for a quick buck, I sell them for market value so that I can do more with furthering and improving my flock, my setup, my equipment, etc. They are living breathing animals and they provide food, both in eggs and meat, which is sky rocketing due to Avian Flu. Many people want that and thus there is a market for them. They also want them to be pretty. Personally, I am not going to cull (and I mean kill) birds which hold value and function properly.. (lay eggs, healthy, etc.) I also want to see the advancement of the breed. So, I am definitely not the right fit as a breeder to get the chickens into the APA, but I am also not in it "for a quick buck". I didn't mean for this post to sound defensive and I was not offended by your comments. Your post made me realize exactly how and why you view the birds the way you do, and in this setting you are 100 percent correct. I know it is off topic. However, I wanted to validate the "Backyard Farmer" I hope my tone comes across correctly. I also didn't feel your comments were directed AT me. However, I realized they do apply to me. So, maybe some day I will have a show quality Legbar, maybe not, but I bet I will have beautiful healthy chickens which I will try to breed to an SOP if there is one. Maybe this topic and thread is not the place for a backyard farmer. I sure do value all of you and your knowledge and by being here I better my chances of improving my Legbars. Your points are well taken regarding what the current market is for Legbars and how they are being sold.