Maybe we could target a few locations next year in different regions. There are a few in California (including the nationals), and I imagine other areas as well.
Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion
- Thread starter ChicKat
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Maybe we could target a few locations next year in different regions. There are a few in California (including the nationals), and I imagine other areas as well.
Well ChicKat you are very kind. I would classify myself as a backyard hobbiest who really enjoys my chickens, and wants to do the best job possible in improving what I have. True breeders are a dedicated bunch, and I admire them immensely.
It has been stated here, how little of a great chicken is about the color. However, this conversation is regarding potential color, comb, "Alternatives:... Or do we need/want Alternatives.So, I for one want to see the color debate continued and resolved. I do not like the "White" look. I want these bright, sunny birds in my flock. (I know it is not all about me)
In my happy place I also want them to have an SOP. If they don't... I will have a nice project breed.I won't be breeding any "White" looking Cream Birds.
The GFF "gold, crele, whatever" birds are everywhere. Here is today's listing of Cream Legbars from Spokane's Craigslist. Take a look at the pictures. I am pretty sure this is going on in Everycity, USA,
http://spokane.craigslist.org/search/sss?sort=rel&query=legbar,
Go to your local Craigslist page, search "Legbar" and post the link, so we can see what is out there being bred, sold and already establishing the look and color of the breed.
Happy Friday Everyone.
Hi KendyF,
I think you have hit on something of concern/interest to me. This thread was devoted to the Alternative SOP, not the SOP for the Cream Legbar. I think it is confusing to focus on the regular Cream Legbar in this thread. I don't think it serves a purpose to try to have a sort of cream sort of not cream "product". I do think it is very effective to have distinctly different looks because a cream bird will be more muted, and I don't think it's a question of is it silver or is it cream. It's cream. Cream looks different than gold. And for whatever reason, birds split for cream look different than birds that are double for cream or have no cream (just gold).
As you've noted, people are breeding "Cream" Legbars, but some are going to be closer to the proposed SOP, while others are farther away. I think it could be very instructive at some point in time to see cream examples in the same show as non-cream examples and really see the difference side-by-side. And have a place for both. I'm glad to know you enjoy a project while this gets sorted out. It's valuable to keep the colorful examples going strong. I like your reference to "sunny", that is exactly how I feel when I look at them.
Just for the record, I am breeding to the Cream SOP and enjoying the process. The further I go along that path, the more I can recognize in both the whiter version and the sunny crele version.
To me the major difference in the two birds in those pictures is the barring - bird two has much more distinctive, clearer barring.
Thanks again Walt. Looks like my timer is about up, I am approaching 5 years with chickens! I did tell my boyfriend that if we do end up moving to Florida, the chickens were going with us
that would be quite a move!
- Thread starter
- #895
Probably this thread is just about wrapped up - I will go through for the final part of the 3rd Summary to pick up loose ends. It could be kind of an exciting 'turning point' or 'fork in the road' - where the can has to be kicked down the road one way or the other - IMO there is a pretty high demand for as Walt put it:
.... You first need to have your five APA members lined up, then decide on one color Standard. There is some flexibility, so it does not have to match the British Standard exactly...but we would need a compelling reason why it is different. There are many examples of differences in the APA Standard and the country of origins Standard. So, we can be somewhat flexible. Try for one color version first......so you will need to decide that at some point.....
Perhaps that is where the CL is now on it's path to APA acceptance - the decision on one color standard....
Meanwhile - Here are two examples of type - one is the Andalusian and one is the Artwork by Diane Jacky-- Diane Jacky - does a lot of illustration for the APA - and also has done the hatchery posters... I think that both these pieces of art show the correctlength of back and angle of back to tail juncture for example:
ETA: I had made a mistake this image is listed as Minorca and not Andalusian -- sorry for the error!
Maybe half way between the two - because the Crele Leghorns used to show color examples as beautiful as those colors and barring patterns are - are the wrong type. The CL is a more upright bird than most Leghorn images that I see.
Thanks for all how have contributed to this thread, I really learned a lot from your posts, pictures, ideas and viewpoints.....
Here is a web images of blue andalusian:
.... You first need to have your five APA members lined up, then decide on one color Standard. There is some flexibility, so it does not have to match the British Standard exactly...but we would need a compelling reason why it is different. There are many examples of differences in the APA Standard and the country of origins Standard. So, we can be somewhat flexible. Try for one color version first......so you will need to decide that at some point.....
Perhaps that is where the CL is now on it's path to APA acceptance - the decision on one color standard....
Meanwhile - Here are two examples of type - one is the Andalusian and one is the Artwork by Diane Jacky-- Diane Jacky - does a lot of illustration for the APA - and also has done the hatchery posters... I think that both these pieces of art show the correctlength of back and angle of back to tail juncture for example:
ETA: I had made a mistake this image is listed as Minorca and not Andalusian -- sorry for the error!
Maybe half way between the two - because the Crele Leghorns used to show color examples as beautiful as those colors and barring patterns are - are the wrong type. The CL is a more upright bird than most Leghorn images that I see.
Thanks for all how have contributed to this thread, I really learned a lot from your posts, pictures, ideas and viewpoints.....
Here is a web images of blue andalusian:
Last edited:
No, this was not directed at anyone here. It's no problem to anyone if the buyer knows what they are getting,but unfortunately that is not the case many times. I don't believe that showing chickens is for all people. My main concern is that people enjoy this hobby at whatever level they like. I'm trying to point these people in the right direction so they can Standardize these birds. At the same time I am passing on some of the things that might make taking this breed seriously difficult. Full disclosure of what a person's project contains to the buyers would be a very good thing, but as long as CL's command the price they do you will have hybrids flooding the market and causing genetic problems for the people who want to breed chickens to a written Standard.Thank you Walt, this was a mind clearing perspective for me to view and it makes perfect sense from the APA, point of view, which is what we are talking about here.
I have a different perspective, which is not relevant to the SOP. I do not consider myself a breeder, I consider myself a "Hobby Farmer". I do sell my chickens with complete disclosure as to what they are, how they live, how they reproduce and what stage the breed is in. New, all over the board, and In the process of seeking APA approval. I provide my chickens with the best feed, healthy conditions, clean water, and plenty of space. After all, I eat them and their by-products, and I sell them to others. I deplore factory farming for the health of the chickens, the value of the food, as well as their welfare. However, I am not a freak about saving all animals.I don't sell my chickens for a quick buck, I sell them for market value so that I can do more with furthering and improving my flock, my setup, my equipment, etc. They are living breathing animals and they provide food, both in eggs and meat, which is sky rocketing due to Avian Flu. Many people want that and thus there is a market for them. They also want them to be pretty. Personally, I am not going to cull (and I mean kill) birds which hold value and function properly.. (lay eggs, healthy, etc.) I also want to see the advancement of the breed. So, I am definitely not the right fit as a breeder to get the chickens into the APA, but I am also not in it "for a quick buck". I didn't mean for this post to sound defensive and I was not offended by your comments. Your post made me realize exactly how and why you view the birds the way you do, and in this setting you are 100 percent correct. I know it is off topic. However, I wanted to validate the "Backyard Farmer" I hope my tone comes across correctly. I also didn't feel your comments were directed AT me. However, I realized they do apply to me. So, maybe some day I will have a show quality Legbar, maybe not, but I bet I will have beautiful healthy chickens which I will try to breed to an SOP if there is one.
Walt
- Jun 18, 2014
- 522
- 50
- 138
Understood and agreed.
- Thread starter
- #898
Although not totally relevant to the Cream Legbar and the SOP and poultry shows... Indiana is another state that is banning poultry shows. In this thread you will find post 41114 - and it is entered here as a sign of the times -- and what may affect Poultry showing in future
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/730582/indiana-bycers-here/41110#post_15333823
ANIMAL HEALTH ADVISORY
FAQs to Clarify Poultry Commingling Ban
(28 May 2015)
Since the members of the Indiana State Board of Animal Health (BOAH) approved a prohibition on the movement of any birds to public shows, sales and other events that allows commingling of birds, the agency has been fielding calls for clarification. The following are the most frequently asked.
Q: Can eggs be shown at county/state fairs?
A: Yes. Eggs may be shown at the fair. They should be presented clean, free of all fecal matter.
Q: Are egg hatching/incubator activities allowed at the county/state fairs and/or in classrooms? Can hatched chicks be sent home with 4-Hers/students or others?
A: Yes. Eggs should be clean and free of all fecal material. Chicks may be sent home with individuals. This activity is not viewed as risky. Infected eggs will not hatch, so that will not result in infected chicks. Further, the use of heat lamps/incubator will provide enough heat to kill virus particles that could be present.
Q: Can a bird or birds from a single source be brought to the fair for use in showmanship/Round Robin/poultry knowledge competitions?
A: Yes, if the birds used meet all of the following criteria:
1. All birds present come from a single source, i.e., the same flock; no mixing. Birds must return to the original site or go to slaughter at the end of the event.
2. Water fowl (geese, swans, ducks, etc.) should not be used.
3. All birds in the flock-of-origin must be healthy and show no signs of disease.
4. Only one set of single-sourced birds are present during the duration of the entire exhibition/event (ie, birds from flock #1 on day 1 may not be replaced with birds from flock #2 on another day of the fair).
5. The Poultry Superintendent must provide BOAH, in writing, with the following information if birds are used: Fair location, name, address and phone number for the bird(s) owner and what date(s) the bird(s) will be at the event. Email info to: [email protected]
Q: Would birds from various sources be allowed if the show is terminal, such as a broiler show?
A: No. Commingling events are not allowed; the terminal status is not germane to this situation.
Q: Can birds be purchased at local farm supply store?
A: Yes. As long as the seller is offering birds that come from a flock that participates in the National Poultry Improvement Program (NPIP).
Q: Does this prohibition change the importation requirements on birds coming from other states? What about mail order birds?
A: Long-standing importation requirements have not changed with this prohibition. Indiana’s avian entry requirements are online at: http://www.in.gov/boah/2391.htm
Q: Does this prohibition apply to certain bird species and not others, or some counties and not others?
A: This prohibition applies to all bird species, not just domestic poultry, in all Indiana counties. This includes exotics and specialty species.
Q: If a county provides birds to all 4-Hers from a single source (broilers), would they be allowed to show those birds at the county fair?
A: No. Once the birds are taken to 4-Hers’ homes, they are no longer coming from a single-source location. The fair would be a commingling event.
Q: Do 4-Hers and others who own poultry present a biosecurity risk if they attend an event that features single-sourced birds?
A: Biosecurity is always an issue at every type of show, for every species. As a good practice, all poultry owners should be sure their shoes and clothing are free of manure/droppings before entering a site where other birds are present. This includes before returning home and having contact with their own birds. 4-Hers handling poultry should wash their hands thoroughly after contact.
Q: Is BOAH or 4-H going to provide information to the public about the absence of birds?
A: Yes. BOAH is working with the Indiana State Poultry Association and Purdue Extension to develop materials that explain why birds are absent from shows and remind the public about the safety of the food supply.
Q: How can Hoosiers comment on this rule?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Once again a reminder to all of us about biosecurity and the importance thereof.
A: BOAH is providing a virtual public hearing online at: http://www.in.gov/boah/2717.htm to give Hoosiers an opportunity to comment on the rule and propose ways the rule can be modified to restore these show and sale events in a safer, healthier way for the birds.
More information on highly pathogenic avian influenza and the current situation in Indiana is available online at:http://www.in.gov/boah/2390.htm. Users may subscribe to email updates on that page.
BOAH: Indiana Entry Health Requirements: Poultry
Note: This message is displayed if (1) your browser is not standards-compliant or (2) you have you disabled CSS. Read our Policies for more information.
IN.GOV
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/730582/indiana-bycers-here/41110#post_15333823
ANIMAL HEALTH ADVISORY
FAQs to Clarify Poultry Commingling Ban
(28 May 2015)
Since the members of the Indiana State Board of Animal Health (BOAH) approved a prohibition on the movement of any birds to public shows, sales and other events that allows commingling of birds, the agency has been fielding calls for clarification. The following are the most frequently asked.
Q: Can eggs be shown at county/state fairs?
A: Yes. Eggs may be shown at the fair. They should be presented clean, free of all fecal matter.
Q: Are egg hatching/incubator activities allowed at the county/state fairs and/or in classrooms? Can hatched chicks be sent home with 4-Hers/students or others?
A: Yes. Eggs should be clean and free of all fecal material. Chicks may be sent home with individuals. This activity is not viewed as risky. Infected eggs will not hatch, so that will not result in infected chicks. Further, the use of heat lamps/incubator will provide enough heat to kill virus particles that could be present.
Q: Can a bird or birds from a single source be brought to the fair for use in showmanship/Round Robin/poultry knowledge competitions?
A: Yes, if the birds used meet all of the following criteria:
1. All birds present come from a single source, i.e., the same flock; no mixing. Birds must return to the original site or go to slaughter at the end of the event.
2. Water fowl (geese, swans, ducks, etc.) should not be used.
3. All birds in the flock-of-origin must be healthy and show no signs of disease.
4. Only one set of single-sourced birds are present during the duration of the entire exhibition/event (ie, birds from flock #1 on day 1 may not be replaced with birds from flock #2 on another day of the fair).
5. The Poultry Superintendent must provide BOAH, in writing, with the following information if birds are used: Fair location, name, address and phone number for the bird(s) owner and what date(s) the bird(s) will be at the event. Email info to: [email protected]
Q: Would birds from various sources be allowed if the show is terminal, such as a broiler show?
A: No. Commingling events are not allowed; the terminal status is not germane to this situation.
Q: Can birds be purchased at local farm supply store?
A: Yes. As long as the seller is offering birds that come from a flock that participates in the National Poultry Improvement Program (NPIP).
Q: Does this prohibition change the importation requirements on birds coming from other states? What about mail order birds?
A: Long-standing importation requirements have not changed with this prohibition. Indiana’s avian entry requirements are online at: http://www.in.gov/boah/2391.htm
Q: Does this prohibition apply to certain bird species and not others, or some counties and not others?
A: This prohibition applies to all bird species, not just domestic poultry, in all Indiana counties. This includes exotics and specialty species.
Q: If a county provides birds to all 4-Hers from a single source (broilers), would they be allowed to show those birds at the county fair?
A: No. Once the birds are taken to 4-Hers’ homes, they are no longer coming from a single-source location. The fair would be a commingling event.
Q: Do 4-Hers and others who own poultry present a biosecurity risk if they attend an event that features single-sourced birds?
A: Biosecurity is always an issue at every type of show, for every species. As a good practice, all poultry owners should be sure their shoes and clothing are free of manure/droppings before entering a site where other birds are present. This includes before returning home and having contact with their own birds. 4-Hers handling poultry should wash their hands thoroughly after contact.
Q: Is BOAH or 4-H going to provide information to the public about the absence of birds?
A: Yes. BOAH is working with the Indiana State Poultry Association and Purdue Extension to develop materials that explain why birds are absent from shows and remind the public about the safety of the food supply.
Q: How can Hoosiers comment on this rule?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Once again a reminder to all of us about biosecurity and the importance thereof.
A: BOAH is providing a virtual public hearing online at: http://www.in.gov/boah/2717.htm to give Hoosiers an opportunity to comment on the rule and propose ways the rule can be modified to restore these show and sale events in a safer, healthier way for the birds.
More information on highly pathogenic avian influenza and the current situation in Indiana is available online at:http://www.in.gov/boah/2390.htm. Users may subscribe to email updates on that page.
BOAH: Indiana Entry Health Requirements: Poultry
Note: This message is displayed if (1) your browser is not standards-compliant or (2) you have you disabled CSS. Read our Policies for more information.
IN.GOV
The invitation is coming out in the next Newsletter, but anyone in driving distance to Knoxville TN is invited the first weekend in December for a Cream Legbar Special Meet at the Dixie Classic! Hopefully there will be birds shown by 4H kids and barring any unforeseen complications I will be there as well.
Talk about way off on the color here
This is my 13 week old girl
Compared to my year old girl
same girl at about 4 months maybe a bit older she has really lightened up.
This is my 13 week old girl
Compared to my year old girl
same girl at about 4 months maybe a bit older she has really lightened up.
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