Food advice

[OFWGKTA]

what food do you give your chickens that gets rid of lice? I tried garlic and they wouldnt eat it, this is the forum I think would give me the answer

 

[Kiki]

There isn't a food that will rid a lice infestation.
You can use either permethrin or ivermectin.

 

[R2elk]

what food do you give your chickens that gets rid of lice? I tried garlic and they wouldnt eat it, this is the forum I think would give me the answer

Spray them with permethrin. There is no food that gets rid of lice. It's good that your chickens wouldn't eat the garlic. Garlic is an allium and alliums are harmful to poultry.

 

[OFWGKTA]

Spray them with permethrin. There is no food that gets rid of lice. It's good that your chickens wouldn't eat the garlic. Garlic is an allium and alliums are harmful to poultry.

Thanks for the advice I'll make sure to get some

 

[Penpal]

How did you give the garlic? It needs to be in a granule or powder form that you just sprinkle on their feed.

 

[NatJ]

Garlic is an allium and alliums are harmful to poultry.

Do you have a source for that statement? Because there are plenty of studies about adding garlic to the feed of commercially-raised chickens, and finding beneficial effects (lower death rate, higher egg production, various other details, depending on the study.)

Of course anything would be harmful in excessive quantities, so no-one should mix large amounts into their chickens' feed or otherwise force them to eat it.

Example of a study that found benefits to garlic in chicken feed:
https://bnrc.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42269-019-0061-6
The study is titled "Nutritional impact of inclusion of garlic (Allium sativum) and/or onion (Allium cepa L.) powder in laying hens’ diets on their performance, egg quality, and some blood constituents"

It also includes a summary of results from several previous studies, in a section headed "background."

 

[Debbie292d]

Do you have a source for that statement? Because there are plenty of studies about adding garlic to the feed of commercially-raised chickens, and finding beneficial effects (lower death rate, higher egg production, various other details, depending on the study.)

Of course anything would be harmful in excessive quantities, so no-one should mix large amounts into their chickens' feed or otherwise force them to eat it.

Example of a study that found benefits to garlic in chicken feed:
https://bnrc.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42269-019-0061-6
The study is titled "Nutritional impact of inclusion of garlic (Allium sativum) and/or onion (Allium cepa L.) powder in laying hens’ diets on their performance, egg quality, and some blood constituents"

It also includes a summary of results from several previous studies, in a section headed "background."

I bookmarked this as there are a few I've seen misled recently and want to share this with them. Thank you!

 

[R2elk]

Do you have a source for that statement? Because there are plenty of studies about adding garlic to the feed of commercially-raised chickens, and finding beneficial effects (lower death rate, higher egg production, various other details, depending on the study.)

Of course anything would be harmful in excessive quantities, so no-one should mix large amounts into their chickens' feed or otherwise force them to eat it.

Example of a study that found benefits to garlic in chicken feed:
https://bnrc.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42269-019-0061-6
The study is titled "Nutritional impact of inclusion of garlic (Allium sativum) and/or onion (Allium cepa L.) powder in laying hens’ diets on their performance, egg quality, and some blood constituents"

It also includes a summary of results from several previous studies, in a section headed "background."

The studies I have seen claiming the benefits are on small groups which in my opinion makes them possible to find their aimed for conclusions. The particular study you are pointing out was for 108 hens.

https://chickendvm.com/poisonous/onion

"Allium spp
Garlic, Shallot, Leek

Onions (Allium spp) are toxic to poultry. If they are ingested in large enough quantities (more than 0.5% of the bird's body weight), onions can damage red blood cells and cause heinz body anemia."

https://poultryhelp.com/toxicplants.html

"Allium spp. (CHIVES, GARLIC, LEEKS, ONIONS); bulbs, bulblets, flowers, stems; gastrointestinal tract affected by plant toxins."

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxicology/food-hazards/allium-spp-toxicosis-in-animals

"Allium spp include garlic, onions, chives, and leeks, although garlic and onions are the most commonly associated with toxicosis. Garlic is 3–5 times more toxic than onion."


Animals will not normally eat things that are harmful to them. One example is turkeys walking down a row of onions in a garden and either snipping off all the tops or pulling the onions out and dropping them where they are. They don't eat any part of them but they can destroy a row of onion starts in minutes.

 

[NatJ]

The studies I have seen claiming the benefits are on small groups which in my opinion makes them possible to find their aimed for conclusions. The particular study you are pointing out was for 108 hens.

Yes, the groups were small. Because of the way they divided them up, 18 hens got no garlic at all, and the highest amount of garlic was given to only 18 hens.

But that is still a lot more birds, and better-controlled conditions, than the typical reports of backyard flock owners.

I also do not see any mention of how many hens died during the study (or whether any did.) But they found increased egg production, which does require the hens be in generally good health.

Animals will not normally eat things that are harmful to them. One example is turkeys walking down a row of onions in a garden and either snipping off all the tops or pulling the onions out and dropping them where they are. They don't eat any part of them but they can destroy a row of onion starts in minutes.

Yes, that is a good point. It sounds like OP offered the garlic separately, which is a good way to let the hen make a choice.

And this would be why I said:

Of course anything would be harmful in excessive quantities, so no-one should mix large amounts into their chickens' feed or otherwise force them to eat it.

Yes, some amounts can be dangerous, but some other amounts are fine.

There are some people who seem concerned that a single taste of garlic will kill their chicken or cause serious health issues: nope, it won't.
There are some other people that think garlic can be given in unlimited quantities and cannot possibly cause harm: nope, not true either. Some levels of garlic definitely can be harmful.


As regards the sources you found:

https://chickendvm.com/poisonous/onion

"Allium spp
Garlic, Shallot, Leek

Onions (Allium spp) are toxic to poultry. If they are ingested in large enough quantities (more than 0.5% of the bird's body weight), onions can damage red blood cells and cause heinz body anemia."

That "0.5% of the bird's body weight" is not at all helpful. Do they mean onion powder or dry onion? Or do they mean fresh onion, that is about 1/10th as potent? It makes an enormous difference.

The study I linked was using up to 1% garlic powder AND 1% onion powder in the feed. If a hen eats about 6% of her body weight in feed each day, those hens were getting something like 1/10th of a percent or less of their body weight in dried garlic + onion each day. So that is a much smaller amount if they are talking dried. But if fresh onion/garlic is 90% water, an equivalent amount of fresh onion/garlic would be about 1% of the hens' body weight each day.

And onions can cause the same problems to humans, but we don't worry about it because it almost never happens (that would have to do with how much onion/garlic a person will eat, and how well our bodies deal with them.)

I tried to follow the links to check the sources. Apart from the fact that most of them are dead, only one really appears relevant to chickens (Chicken Health Handbook.) There are a few I can't tell. The ones about cats and dairy cattle do not seem very relevant, and I'm not sure the conure is either (although it is at least a bird, it is apparently one single individual: even smaller than the study I cited.)

https://poultryhelp.com/toxicplants.html

"Allium spp. (CHIVES, GARLIC, LEEKS, ONIONS); bulbs, bulblets, flowers, stems; gastrointestinal tract affected by plant toxins."

I notice this is giving a completely different effect than what the previous one said, which makes me want to see sources (but there aren't any.)

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxicology/food-hazards/allium-spp-toxicosis-in-animals

"Allium spp include garlic, onions, chives, and leeks, although garlic and onions are the most commonly associated with toxicosis. Garlic is 3–5 times more toxic than onion."

This one looks the most informative, except that it doesn't talk about chickens at all. It mentions cats, dogs, pigs, cows, goats, sheep. There is no mention of any kind of birds. And it explicitly says that some species are much more sensitive than others (so no reason to assume that chickens are like any specific one, given the wide range between mammals, from cats who are sensitive to humans who seem able to safely eat as much onion & garlic as we like.)

It does talk about when symptoms appear and what they are:
"Clinical signs of Allium spp toxicosis are generally not noted until substantial hemolysis has occurred, usually a few days after exposure. Depression, anorexia, tachypnea, tachycardia, weakness, exercise intolerance, icterus, hemoglobinuria, collapse, and death may occur."

That is a fast enough response, and serious enough symptoms, that it should have shown up in even a small study of garlic in chicken food. (And the number of people who talk about giving their chickens garlic as a "natural" remedy or a long-term food supplement are also partial-proof that chickens can tolerate a certain amount of garlic, although the amount is not very clearly defined.) I have not yet seen any accounts, in any kind of source, of a chicken that showed symptoms or died as a result of being fed garlic. So either it isn't happening, or it isn't being reported anywhere I have happened to look.

I'm still at the point I was before: pretty firmly convinced that small amounts of garlic are not harmful to chickens, but that large amounts could be. Also firmly convinced that garlic is not a miracle cure-all, no matter what species is being discussed.

 

[R2elk]

Yes, the groups were small. Because of the way they divided them up, 18 hens got no garlic at all, and the highest amount of garlic was given to only 18 hens.

But that is still a lot more birds, and better-controlled conditions, than the typical reports of backyard flock owners.

I also do not see any mention of how many hens died during the study (or whether any did.) But they found increased egg production, which does require the hens be in generally good health.



Yes, that is a good point. It sounds like OP offered the garlic separately, which is a good way to let the hen make a choice.

And this would be why I said:

Yes, some amounts can be dangerous, but some other amounts are fine.

There are some people who seem concerned that a single taste of garlic will kill their chicken or cause serious health issues: nope, it won't.
There are some other people that think garlic can be given in unlimited quantities and cannot possibly cause harm: nope, not true either. Some levels of garlic definitely can be harmful.


As regards the sources you found:

That "0.5% of the bird's body weight" is not at all helpful. Do they mean onion powder or dry onion? Or do they mean fresh onion, that is about 1/10th as potent? It makes an enormous difference.

The study I linked was using up to 1% garlic powder AND 1% onion powder in the feed. If a hen eats about 6% of her body weight in feed each day, those hens were getting something like 1/10th of a percent or less of their body weight in dried garlic + onion each day. So that is a much smaller amount if they are talking dried. But if fresh onion/garlic is 90% water, an equivalent amount of fresh onion/garlic would be about 1% of the hens' body weight each day.

And onions can cause the same problems to humans, but we don't worry about it because it almost never happens (that would have to do with how much onion/garlic a person will eat, and how well our bodies deal with them.)

I tried to follow the links to check the sources. Apart from the fact that most of them are dead, only one really appears relevant to chickens (Chicken Health Handbook.) There are a few I can't tell. The ones about cats and dairy cattle do not seem very relevant, and I'm not sure the conure is either (although it is at least a bird, it is apparently one single individual: even smaller than the study I cited.)


I notice this is giving a completely different effect than what the previous one said, which makes me want to see sources (but there aren't any.)


This one looks the most informative, except that it doesn't talk about chickens at all. It mentions cats, dogs, pigs, cows, goats, sheep. There is no mention of any kind of birds. And it explicitly says that some species are much more sensitive than others (so no reason to assume that chickens are like any specific one, given the wide range between mammals, from cats who are sensitive to humans who seem able to safely eat as much onion & garlic as we like.)

It does talk about when symptoms appear and what they are:
"Clinical signs of Allium spp toxicosis are generally not noted until substantial hemolysis has occurred, usually a few days after exposure. Depression, anorexia, tachypnea, tachycardia, weakness, exercise intolerance, icterus, hemoglobinuria, collapse, and death may occur."

That is a fast enough response, and serious enough symptoms, that it should have shown up in even a small study of garlic in chicken food. (And the number of people who talk about giving their chickens garlic as a "natural" remedy or a long-term food supplement are also partial-proof that chickens can tolerate a certain amount of garlic, although the amount is not very clearly defined.) I have not yet seen any accounts, in any kind of source, of a chicken that showed symptoms or died as a result of being fed garlic. So either it isn't happening, or it isn't being reported anywhere I have happened to look.

I'm still at the point I was before: pretty firmly convinced that small amounts of garlic are not harmful to chickens, but that large amounts could be. Also firmly convinced that garlic is not a miracle cure-all, no matter what species is being discussed.

Pretty much everywhere I saw the 0.5% was the lowest level without toxicity.

I don't have the inclination to nit pick the study you provided other than to say number one, it is not a statistically valid study due to the small size of the study and about the only thing they proved that is if you give it in small enough amounts it won't kill the chickens.

Backyard owners aren't paying attention to how little it takes to be harmful. In my opinion it is irresponsible to tell people who over feed treats, etc that garlic or for that matter any allium is good for their birds.