Genetic hackle (fly tying) color ID gene questions

[LowcoMatt]

Heres my Rooster (Handsome Henry) and Hen (Grey) that both (supposedly) carry genetic hackle genes. The one who I got them from admitted the Rooster was atleast 1/2-3/4 but had some crossing in his lineage but im very happy with his coloring and especially his demeanor. No problems with the wife or kids. The Hen came from an egg I got from her mother who looked exactly like her, and was in a pen with Two males that were almost white but had thin dark barring.

What is the roosters coloring called? I did cross this rooster to a MilleFluer duccle and got too beautiful red(mahogany) birds a boy and girl.

What could I expect coloring from these two offspring?

Would photos of the aforementioned mille cross youngsters be helpful?

 

[LowcoMatt]

Adding a photo of the MF duccle cross babies here maybe that'll help understand the roosters coloring?

I realize now maybe this is better suited for genetics/color subforum. Feel free to move it (admin) thank you.

 

[LowcoMatt]

In case anybody was wondering here's one offspring, looks just like the mother is far as barred patterning. The rest of these chicks are from different hens

 

[BastyPutt]

Oh boy, this is a tough one. Genetically, Cuckoo (as these are) and barring are when things seem to get tricky.

I THINK his color would be called cuckoo red duckwing, but I won't say that for sure.

Here is the person who will absolutely have the answers. @NatJ

If you bred the cuckoo rooster to the cuckoo hen, you'd end up with birds that look like mom and dad.

If you bred the hen to a something like a Rhode Island Red rooster, I believe you'd end up with all black chickens, with males having cuckoo. So they'd be sexlinked with mom passing on the cuckoo only to her sons. However, she has some lancets, which means she may be mixed, which might throw off the sexlinking. But her black color (under the cuckoo) should pass and be dominant on all chicks. If I'm wrong Nat will correct me.... I hope.

If you bred him with something else, you'd have some the dominant color of hen, some his color and still some that would have barring. But there would be no sexlinking and colors would be unpredictable.

 

[NatJ]

I THINK his color would be called cuckoo red duckwing, but I won't say that for sure.

I was considering "Crele" as a color name, but I'm not entirely sure either.

Here is the person who will absolutely have the answers. @NatJ

Unfortunately, not always.

If you bred the cuckoo rooster to the cuckoo hen, you'd end up with birds that look like mom and dad.

Yes, that is pretty much what I would expect: lots of black chicks with white barring, with various amounts of red/gold that range from little bits (like the hen) to large amounts (like the rooster).

I do not see any white barring on the chicks who have that rooster for father and a Mille Fleur d'Uccle mother. So that would mean the father only has one copy of the barring gene, not two. That would mean he will give barring to half his chicks, not all of them.

If the father gives barring to half his chicks (either gender), and the hen gives barring to her sons but not daughters, then the chicks will have four possibilities with barring:
--daughters with white barring
--daughters with no white barring
--sons with white barring (one copy of the barring gene)
--sons with white barring (two copies of the barring gene, showing more white than their brothers with one copy.)

If the hen is pure for the Extended Black gene (which causes the black base color), then all chicks will have a black base color, but will show various amounts of gold leakage. But if the hen is split with Extended Black and something else, then half the chicks might have a Duckwing-type base color (like the father, or a slightly different form in females: look at photos of "crele" hens for an example.) I don't know which is more likely.

If you bred the hen to a something like a Rhode Island Red rooster, I believe you'd end up with all black chickens, with males having cuckoo. So they'd be sexlinked with mom passing on the cuckoo only to her sons. However, she has some lancets, which means she may be mixed, which might throw off the sexlinking. But her black color (under the cuckoo) should pass and be dominant on all chicks. If I'm wrong Nat will correct me.... I hope.

You are a bit wrong about which part might be mixed. It will not mess up the sex-linking.

Yes, crossing the mother to a solid color rooster (not-barred) would give sons with white barring and daughters without. A hen cannot be mixed for barring. She only has one Z sex chromosome, so either she has it (and gives it to all her sons) or she does not. Her W sex chromosome has no barring, and goes to her daughters.

Yes, she might be a bit mixed in color, but it's the all-black part that may be mixed. So rather than giving a black base color to all her chicks, she might give black to half of them and something else to the other half. That would mean some chicks could be red (like the hypothetical Rhode Island Red rooster in your example, or the Mille Fleur-cross chicks in the example photo), or could have a duckwing-type color base (like the rooster in the photo.)

If you bred him with something else, you'd have some the dominant color of hen, some his color and still some that would have barring. But there would be no sexlinking and colors would be unpredictable.

Are you talking about the son in the photo? Or the one in your hypothetical Rhode Island Red example? I got a little lost.

The actual chick in the photo, black with white barring, is probably split for Extended Black (from the mother) and something else from the father (presumably duckwing), so he can pass either of those to his own chicks. He can give white barring to chicks of either gender, just like his father can.

In case anybody was wondering here's one offspring, looks just like the mother is far as barred patterning. The rest of these chicks are from different hens

Looks good

 

[NatJ]

I see this was also addressed in a different thread around that time:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...alandia-thread.1509343/page-332#post-26794948

At the time I thought the hen & rooster might be Birchen in color, but someone else had a different explanation:

I would expect most sons to look a lot like the father, and most daughters to look a lot like the mother.

(I am assuming they are genetically gold birchen, with white barring, and I am not considering recessive gene possibilities. If my assumptions are wrong, then of course my prediction will also be wrong.)


Hmm. The father may only have one copy of the barring gene, instead of the two I expected. In that case, you might get some daughters without barring (like if the white stripes were removed from the mother.) All sons should have barring anyway, and some of the daughters will too.

Based on how the offspring looks (both appear to be dun), the father is probably single barred dun gold duckwing (which I guess you could call incomplete barred dun crele).

Given the amount of black on the current chick, I now think it is more likely that the hen has Extended Black rather than the Birchen I previously thought. Which of course changes various things about the color predictions for the chicks.

 

[BastyPutt]

As usual, my favorite time on BYC is reading Nats knowledge.

Are you talking about the son in the photo? Or the one in your hypothetical Rhode Island Red example? I got a little lost

I was referring to the rooster here (barred) and him being bred with another hen - which is what the Mille Fleur example is in OP's post I suppose.

So that would mean the father only has one copy of the barring gene, not two

Ok - so potentially, a rooster who has two barring copies could produce 100% barred chicks? And this would be the only way to know if he had two copies, obviously.

I think I am following the rest here. I'll do the usual and read it 4 or 5 more times until I lock it in.

 

[NatJ]

Ok - so potentially, a rooster who has two barring copies could produce 100% barred chicks? And this would be the only way to know if he had two copies, obviously.

Yes, that is correct. A rooster with two copies of the barring gene would give barring to every chick he sires.

With some chickens (example: Barred Rocks, Cream Legbar), it is pretty obvious that the males have two copies of barring and the females have one. The males are overall lighter in color. So you can be pretty sure those males have two copies of the barring gene, without the bother of test-mating to check.

 

[BastyPutt]

The males are overall lighter in color.

Oh got it. Okay, I obviously knew the difference in appearance between BR sexes, but didn't attribute it to one having an extra copy. This makes sense.

So what about cuckoo? Is that the barred gene but with some sort of modifier present that makes it more blended with the black, or is it different entirely?

 

[NatJ]

So what about cuckoo? Is that the barred gene but with some sort of modifier present that makes it more blended with the black, or is it different entirely?

Cuckoo is also the barring gene. Yes, the difference is supposed to be that "barred" has tidy lines and "cuckoo" has the fuzzier lines.

I would say that "barred" is actually the one with a modifier (making the lines tidier), based on which appearance shows up most often in mixes and crosses (fuzzy appearance/cuckoo).

Some breeds have varieties with one name or the other (Barred Rock, Cuckoo Marans). But for most Barred Rocks and Cuckoo Marans from hatcheries, the "barring" is about the same either way.

I've mostly given up on trying to tell them apart, and when discussing genetics I usually say "barred" for birds that have the barring gene, because it's obvious how the gene & color relate when I say it that way.