Greenfire Farms Chick Survival Rate

[elkinsacres]

I'll admit straight off that I am beyond frustrated here... I have won two separate auctions over on Rare Breed Auctions for two different breeds of chicks, both from Greenfire Farms. Needless to say, the price was significantly reduced from the standard on the Greenfire site. I only mention this as a potential factor.

The first was about a month ago or so for ten Niederrheiners. I'm in Arkansas, Greenfire is in Florida. They shipped out on a Monday, arrived on Wednesday or Thursday morning (can't seem to find the tracking info to confirm). They shipped twelve, so as to have two extras. All chicks were alive on delivery, but they seemed VERY small compared to every other chick I've seen (RIRs, Plymouth Barred Rock, Marans, Cream Legbars, Olive Eggers, Swedish Flower Hens, Bielefelders, Barbezieux, etc - just indicating here that I've raised some chicks...). GroGel was included in the shipment, and many of the chicks had blue-green staining on their feet and feathers from this. Within a few days, they started dropping. They never seemed to thrive, didn't see them aggressively going for food or water, just weak chicks. As of today, I have a total of three that have survived. These three seem to be in good shape, but I would like to see them a bit larger at this point.

Flash forward to this week to the second auction win, this time for ten Twentse. Same shipping timetable. Chicks were VERY loud in the box, so I was much more excited to open up the box and see them. Well, my optimism was immediately extinguished when I clipped the tie-wraps... They shipped thirteen, so as to have three extras. Three dead upon arrival - one trampled to death, two apparently 'drowned' in the included GroGel cups (heads still in the cups). Three more covered in GroGel and trampled to the point they were not moving and barely breathing. The other seven seemed OK, but many had blue-green spots on them from GroGel. I rushed home from the Post Office, about a 25-minute drive, and put the 'survivors' in the brooder I had prepared for them (two lamps, pine shavings, 20% non-medicated chick starter and water). The three that were in rough shape, I brought them inside and got them washed off and back up to temp using warm water. They started to perk back up enough for me to shift them to the bathroom to put under a hair dryer. Unbelievably, they looked like they might just make it, albeit HEAVILY stained from GroGel contact (one of them was about half blue-green, feather down really absorbs that GroGel...). Into the brooder they went with the rest. I have had them for about 36 hours now and have lost two more with an additional chick currently circling the drain. There are some pine shavings in the water (I clean this out every time I see this happen, of course) which would indicate to me they are actively scratching around by the waterer and drinking water. Feed, on the other hand, barely shows any signs of activity.

Now I have raised a lot of chicks this year; hundreds, in fact. The losses would be on VERY rare occasions. One chick drowned in a waterer, one chick got stuck in a feeder near a heat lamp, one I recall was weak from the start and eventually died several weeks later (although I just knew it wouldn't make it, I gave it the opportunity). I have raised ten different breeds of chicks this year. I have used a variety of different bedding material - pine shavings, hay, grass clippings. I have consistently used 20% non-medicated chick starter from Powell's Feed. Water is changed at least daily, but usually two or three times daily. I check on my chicks, on average, four times a day. Until they start to get feathers, I run two separate lamps - one closer to the brooder floor than the other. I can provide any other details upon request. I want to be completely transparent here as this is a problem I really want to solve.

So...I guess I have a few questions here...

1. What is your experience with Greenfire Farms chicks? Out of two separate shipments, I have two absolutely abysmal survival rates - and Shipment Number Two is still in flux.

2. What is your opinion/experience with GroGel? It seems like this stuff might as well be rat poison as every chick that ended up contacting it eventually died. My three surviving Niederrheiners were, maybe not coincidentally, completely clean with no blue-green staining at all. It seems that, in theory, this is a great thing for chicks - nourishment and hydration that doesn't 'spill'. However... Why is it dyed at all? Why is it placed in a shipping box in such a manner that small chicks can (and do) walk through it, getting it stuck to them? In the future, I plan to specifically request that it NOT be used. I'll just take my chances. After all, for day-old chicks, they should still be absorbing their internal yolk sacs for up to 72 hours anyway.

3. What the heck can I do to increase my survival rate here? I have basically resigned myself to the same rate of loss for these Twentse chicks over the next week or two, but it just kills me. You go from beyond excited to win an auction for rare chicks at an awesome discount only to have that crushed on an epic scale by death after death so quickly.

Thanks for any help or guidance or stories you can share.

 

[elkinsacres]

Update:

I am now down to five Twentse chicks. No obvious issues, just failure/refusal to thrive. What's worse is that these birds had no GroGel staining whatsoever. I fully expected these more vigorous in the lot to have better survivability, but, alas, they just don't.

Greenfire chicks are the ONLY chicks that have exhibited this behavior for me. ALL of my birds were raised here on our farm. Eggs incubated in-house from a few sources. Chicks came in from a few sources. ALL chicks raised the same - same brooders, same feed, same water, etc.

I'm really hoping to here from others that have purchased chicks from Greenfire to see if my problems are unique or is there is some 'secret ingredient' I am missing. Needless to say, I am incredibly disappointed. At this point, I figure these Twentse chicks will be a total loss. Greenfire has offered a refund for all dead chicks after 72 hours, but I want living, healthy chicks that will become vigorous, productive birds. I'd also like to erase this experience as it has been totally demoralizing.

 

[3riverschick]

Sadly, today one of my Svart Hona's chick died and the other one is very, very weak. I have no idea what's going on! Still, two out of 32 is pretty good.
Well, I also lost a SFH so technically, three dead out of 32 is pretty good. I think some chicks are just weaker than others. It's sad really, since we can't help but love them all
as soon we get them. Sigh, I don't know what to do for this chick and have just been feeding it Save-A-Chic water with sugar through a syringe since it's too weak to even lift it's little head.

Hi,

If the chick is this weak it is also too weak to digest the helps you are giving. Weakness and stress make it hard to uptake the helps. Try giving the little one some Poultry Nutri-Drops. Great stuff, I have used it for years on my Light Sussex and collies. It is a top flight emergency nutritional supplement. All natural. Created by a cattle farmer here in the USA under 2 US patents. Measureable in the bloodstream in 30 minutes with 99% utilization. It doesn't need to be digested. Mainlines directly into the bloodstream.
Poultry instructions. Give each new hatched chick one drop only by mouth. Repeat as needed every 8-10 hours until perky.
Add 2-4 ml per gallon to their drinking water for the 1st 2 week to get them off to a strong start.
This stuff really works. What is happening is that as the chick is stressed, it's G.I. tract becomes more unable to properly digest the helps you are giving. So the bird gets weaker. Eventually it reaches a tipping point where the bird's need for energy and nutrition is outbalanced by the lack thereof. The body systems start a cascade of failure and the chick dies.With Bovidr Labs Poultry Nutri-Drops, we can interdict this timeline and because it doesn't need digesting, we can mainline the chick the energy and nutrition it needs to restore balance to its body systems and restore its immune system. http://www.nutridrench.com I get mine at Tractor Supply only 6.99 for the small bottle. That will be enough to start. You spent so much money on these chicks. Just give it a try. Now, tho the Bovidr Labs formulas are species-specific, I talked to the science tech at Bovidr Labs and they also meet the scientific standard for a universal formula. Last season, I raised 42 Light Sussex chicks on the Goat Formula using the Poultry usage and dosage instructions. No sickness, no death, just 42 robust chicks. Bovidr Labs also told me the Beef Formula can be used on dogs. I used the Beef formula on my collie dogs for years with great success. So start out with the Poultry Nutri-Drench and then move to the Goat if you want to save some money. Both worked great for me.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[elkinsacres]

Water couldn't be the issue as they started dropping way before I saw them start drinking. Regardless, I have raised a few hundred chicks of different breeds with no issues at all.

I have had a total of three batches of chicks with issues - two came from Greenfire Farms (Niederrheiners and Twentse), one from Brinkhaven Acres (Niederrheiners). All were shipped with GroGel. I had another batch of chicks shipped in (Barbezieux) from Gold Feather Farms and had ZERO issues with them.

Originally, after getting the second batch of Niederrheiners, and seeing how dang small the chicks were (compared with any other breed), I am if the thinking they are just a fragile bird. Maybe my experiences are unique, but we won't be making a go at them because of this. The Barbezieux, on the other hand, have done very well. Really looking forward to seeing them as they continue to feather out.

The new batch of Twentse, man, they were in such rough shape by the time I picked them up. Here's a pic of the box:

I'm down to four Twentse chicks now.

I would really like to hear from anyone else that has had chicks shipped from Greenfire. Am I the only person to have these problems? What can I do to avoid them in the future? Overall, my experience with using USPS to ship chicks or eggs has been overwhelmingly bad. I don't see myself ever shipping anything in again. I plan on making the trip, in person, to wherever I need to go. It's the only way to ensure proper handling in transit.

 

[elkinsacres]

I'm glad you mentioned your direct experience with the Niederrheiners as this mirrors mine exactly. VERY small chicks for a bird that grows so large. I just hatched out a few from Brice with Sunbird Farms, and they are dinky little chicks. That being said, they seem much more robust than my Greenfire Farms batch. Shipping takes a huge toll on chicks, and that is magnified when the chicks are smaller in size.

I also agree on the whole 'rare breed' theory. These are breeds that fell out of favor for a variety of reasons, but most importantly that stronger birds have been more readily raised. Rarity is also a bit of a misnomer in some cases so I like to call them 'boutique' chickens. I think they are GREAT for the backyard hobbyist or someone that can dedicate loads of time to them. For homesteaders or folks raising larger numbers of birds, finding the time necessary to...hmmm...coddle some of these fragile fowl may be difficult. I doubt we will continue to breed Niederrheiners past what we have now. If they happen to get stronger and improve, things could change. The fact that the Lemon Cuckoo variety isn't auto-sexing is also a strike against them in my book. I'm raising Bielefelders as well, and they are not only auto-sexing but just some of the hardiest and fastest-growing birds I've ever seen. And I have not seen them picking on their smaller roommates.

Oh well, I have learned a LOT this year, and thank goodness for the community here at BackYardChickens!

 

[UberchicRanch]

Hi there,

Just wanted to share some of our experience. First off, I've never used GroGel so to do it justice I can't really give an opinion on the product itself. I hear it's a love / hate type of scenario. The reason I never used GroGel on my own birds or when I would order from a hatchery is the fact that the chicks typically have enough sustenance for about 48 hours. Some say 24 hours but that's being conservative. You don't know what weather or travel conditions these little guys have endured. It typically takes 1-2 days to ship the chicks. That's why it is best practice to introduce the chicks to water and food when you first receive them.

As far as your experience with Greenfire / Sunbird / etc. unfortunately there are too many variables to really nail down all of "the why's" so we could only take a guess. As far as the chicks being pretty small...that could be a number of reasons as well. What it most likely could be is the hens are still too young so they are yet to lay large eggs. Larger eggs do produce larger chicks. That's why you have runts from time to time in a batch because it hatched out of a smaller egg.

I do agree that the deaths seem pretty bizarre. I really wonder what the outcome would be if you didn't have the GroGel. To clarify why the Bielefelders and Niederrheiners are rare...they were developed in Germany in the early 1970s. I believe Greenfire imported them around 2011 or 2013. They were the first to import these chickens into the U.S. As a result, there aren't many of these birds in the U.S. compared to other breeds. However, you find plenty of them in Europe to the point of being uncommon. They are also recognized in the European Standard of Breeds, but are yet to be recognized in the American Standard of Breeds -- The American Standard of Perfection. With that being said, if we don't get more imports of new blood, the breed could have genetic problems which could become the demise of the breed in itself here in the U.S.

With that being said, we are breeders of Bielefelders and Niederrheiners. As I post this at this time, we have not acquired our stock directly from Greenfire. We do plan on importing some more soon to diversify the gene pool, but currently do not have a date. Personally, we have not experienced any deaths (so far - thank God!) The Bielefelders and Niederrheiners do have a better temperament than other breeds and almost seem to be more like dogs than chickens. We've had over 40+ varieties of chickens over the years so we have a good sense of character traits. As far as the auto-sexing of Niederrheiners, although I do agree it is far more difficult than the Bielefelders, I currently have my hypothesis on how to determine the males from females since Day 1. I am detecting a pattern in the coloring of the chicks but as of now I do not want to publish anything until I'm 100% correct consistently at predicting gender. I look forward to the day for publishing the findings. Furthermore, since this breed is not common in the U.S. (or the rest of the world minus Europe, really) we are using best practices as far as selectivity for our breeder birds so that we continue to keep those positive traits of the Bielefelders and Niederrheiners. Unfortunately, I've already come across some "breeders" that are creating chicken mills and that ultimately hurts the breed over here in the U.S. especially!

I really am sad to hear you've had some bad experiences but please do keep us posted with how things turn out. How old are your chicks? If I may, I'd like to test to see if I can identify the gender of your Niederrheiners before it becomes really obvious. Thank you for your post! It helps us as breeders to know and see what's going on out there. I'll be watching this thread to help with quality control for the two breeds. Good luck with the rest of your brood!

 

[Exotica]

I'd like to update!

First, I'd like to say that I live in Southern California and GFF is of course, on the opposite side of the country in Florida.

By now, I've won two auctions.

The first auction, I won 12 random assorted chicks - Josette, was a sweetheart and sent me 16.
In total, I received: 2 Bielefelders, 7 Swedish Flower Hens, 5 Cream Legbars, and 2 Black Swedish Hens (Svart Hona's).
All arrived healthy, happy, and vivacious! None died at arrival, but the next day one Swedish Flower Hen passed.

My second auction, which I received October 27, 2015 was for 12 random assorted chicks again and again, she gave me extra - 15.
This time, she was an absolute doll and gave me: 2 East Frisian Gulls (lemon), 4 Svart Hona's, 2 White Pavlovskaya's, 2 Marsh Daisies, 3 Orusts,, 1 Silver Spitzhauben, and 1 Lyonnaise.
The total for this would've been $1, 877 plus $35 shipping! I was lucky to get it for only $175 (including shipping). That's $11.66 per chick!
Anyways, this shipment arrived with all the chicks alive as well. I also believe that these chicks were either shipped to me a day before or on the
same day that they hatched since most of them still had their egg tooth.
(Oh and to prove how sweet Josette is - she went ahead and shipped the chicks before I even paid. Of course I paid her immediately
the next day, but she sent me an e-mail saying she had already shipped the chicks and trusts that I will pay her. She did this because
I have college classes on Wednesdays so she had to ship the chicks on Monday since Tuesday is my only day off. I hadn't even thought of that
since the first batch took her two weeks to send. Such a sweet, sweet lady!)

In total, I've only had one loss from Geenfire Farms and that was the day after they were shipped.
Elkinsacres pictures shows how they were packaged and in my opinion, the chicks were packaged perfectly, with two large hand warmer heat pads, one of those Excelsior nest box mats (woven Aspen fibers), and four small cups of Gro-Gel taped to each corner.
The heat pads were still warm when I got it!
The chicks also had stained beaks, suggesting that they ate the Gro-Gel. In fact, as I was opening the box the second time, three of them were happily munching on the stuff.

I'd also like to add that I was worried before about a rumor I heard of them sending only males chicks if someone won an auction. That is entirely not true! For the auto sexing breeds, they sent me all females.

At first, it took a while for Josette to answer me but once she did, she has been a doll and has answered all my questions.
She gave me extra's both time and their quality of chicks is excellent, especially since hey all survived!
I had ordered chicks from Northern California that arrived with only 50% alive, as opposed to Greenfire Farms 100%
I always give my chicks Save-A-Chic Vitamins and Electrolytes when they arrive.
What I did different with the Greenfire Farm chicks (as opposed to the chick I got from Secret Hills Ranch) is:
Before I even open the box, I get a bowl of water and mix some of the Save-A-Chic power in. As soon as I open the box, I take each one out and dip it's beak in the water at least 4-5 times to make sure that they get their fill of water.
After, I put them under the heat lamp in the brooder and about 30 minutes later, will dip their beak where the waterer is in the brooder to make sure they know where it is.
With Secret Hills Ranch, even though only 50% arrived alive, about 3-4 died the day after. Perhaps my success with these two GFF is because I made sure they were adequately hydrated?

DEFINITELY ORDER FROM THEM!
They're in the top tier and now I understand why. Such sweet people with beautiful birds!

I'm never ordering from anyone else. Seriously!
She even gave me a 20% off coupon for my next purchase.

I'd like to add that I'm so sorry @elkinsacres. I have no idea why your order didn't go the way expected. How long did it take the chicks to get to you? Was it overnight? Also, how was the weather in your area? Was it hot? I see that you have a good amount of chicks, so the cold wouldn't have been an issue but too much heat could've killed them. Of course we don't know what happened, but could it have been an evil mail carrier that shook the heck out of your chicks? Maybe they were just so hungry, ate too fast, and choked? Maybe they had already passed, but shaking made their bodies move and once the heads got into the cups, it made them seem like they drowned? My Gro-Gel wasn't watery at all. Before she shipped mine, I checked the weather for predicted DOA and sent it to her. However, some of my chicks are also getting the "pasty-butt" thing that you mentioned. I've just been checking them daily and cleaning them off.

 

[elkinsacres]

I recently received some Twentse chicks from Greenfire. Same issues as before, but a little bit different...

Nine chicks shipped on Monday afternoon. I knew exactly when they would be arriving so I was at the Post Office bright and early on Wednesday morning. The total time in transit was only 36 hours, minimizing handling, delays, etc. I clipped the tie-wrap right there in front of the Postmaster to find six chicks upright with three trampled down and covered with GroGel. I harshly criticized the USPS handling of packages as this was not the first (or second...) time I have had bird issues or losses.

Luckily, and I believe this is due to minimizing total time in transit, all nine chicks were still alive. I rushed home and put the six healthy chicks in my brooder. They seemed lethargic and exhausted (unlike my recent shipment of Isbars), but I introduced them to water and feed. I examined the three trampled chicks to find they were a bit cold and now suffered from splayed legs. My hypothesis is that they got jostled pretty early on, got bumped into the GroGel cups and got sticky (which doesn't help with movement) and cold (the gelatin will slowly rob the chick of body heat due to evaporation). Mostly immobilized, the other chicks either willfully or accidentally stepped on them over and over. Good times, right?

The three splayed leg chicks are sitting in the bottom of my incubator, in isolation...but warm, so they can recuperate. I'm using the split Band Aid method of gently binding their legs together. I have some water and feed with them; the water has an electrolyte and vitamin powder added. They don't seem super-stoked about being hobbled, but they are perky (most likely thanks to the solution - something I now HIGHLY recommend).

I'm sure GroGel provides a solid electrolyte and nutritional supplement...but only when eaten by the chicks. If it isn't eaten, if it is placed somewhere that the chicks can fall into it, it becomes a huge liability. My recommendation is one of the following:
1. Request GroGel be withheld from shipping. If the chicks are day old, and especially if transit time is as short as it is for me, they will be just fine without it. After all, they should still be absorbing their own yolk sacs.
2. Shippers should affix some kind of modified lid on the GroGel cups, sufficient to allow access via the chicks beaks...but also prohibiting them from falling into the cups.
3. Greenfire glues the cups to the side of the box to prevent them from getting knocked around. My suggestion to them was to use TWO CUPS, glued bottom to bottom to look like an open-ended hourglass. The top cup gets GroGel, the bottom cup gets glued to the box bottom. This way the GroGel is still accessible to the chicks, but the possibility of them walking through it or creating body contact is minimized.

If I ship chicks, I would only provide GroGel upon request. And if I did include it, I would use the methodology of #3 above.

 

[3riverschick]

Wow, what a mess. I am so sorry for your losses. Maybe these chicks just can't stand the stress of shipping?
Maybe they are getting chilled from being wet from the Gro gel? I have never had that problem with shipping chicks with Gro-gel. I used Gro gel Plus. But I never put it in cups or anything that might trap the chicks, sigh. Just put a little pile in the box.
One thing I do. I give my chicks Bovidr Labs Poultry Nutri-Drops. http://www.nutridrench.com
Poultry instructions: If they are needy, they get 1 drop per chick by mouth. Repeat as needed every 8-10 hours until perky. I put 2ml per gallon in their water for the first 2 weeks to get them off to a strong start. My solution looks like very weak tea. It is all natural. A little but goes a long way as it is very concentrated. Measureable in the bloodstream in 30 minutes with 99% utilization. I believe the secret to this product is not only the top quality ingredients...it's that it doesn't need digesting. It mainlines directly into the bloodstream. It's energy to help reset the immune system and combat stress. Without the struggle to digest it when the body systems are already stressed. I get mine at Tractor Supply Company for 6.99 for the smallest bottle which goes a long way. I've used the Bovidr Labs products on my collies and poultry for over a decade. They really work if you need energy for your babies.
Best regards,
Karen
I sincerely hope Greenfire farms is replacing all these lost chicks.

 

[MrsBachbach]

I have used grow gel here on chicks at home. Some like it, some don't. But, I do wonder if it was properly hydrated prior to putting it in the box. If you ever hydrated the stuff, add a bit of water and it expands, add a bit more and it expands more. You can keep adding water to the stuff and at some point it will stop expanding, but, what if it didn't get enough water put in it?
Just some thoughts, but if the chicks eat it and it isn't properly hydrated, will it expand in the chicks? Will it dehydrate them, absorbing the water in their systems? I really don't know, but it is strange. Especially for you to still be losing some in the days after receiving them.
One other thing, check the manufacture date of your feed. Shouldn't be older than three months.
I have had a very hard time finding fresh feed this past summer. I like Nutrena but it is impossible to find it fresh anywhere. One place was trying to sell me feed that was over a year old. It smelled awful.