HELP! Need counter-arguments for non-believers.

[khorvath]

I am in the midst of working to legalize backyard hens in my town (a suburb of Chicago). I've got a small group of volunteers, an ongoing petition with 350 signatures from residents, and a few supportive aldermen. We failed in city council 2 years ago but are back with some new aldermen and I am hoping this year will work. However, I am going up against some really crotchety folks who won't listen to reason.

Last night I was invited to speak at a ward meeting. Right away I knew I was in trouble when a few old men behind me started laughing and making chicken sounds when they saw me. Classy! I came prepared with tons of statistics, letters from avian vets as well as all the nearby towns that allow hens. I had a good case. But as I spoke there were a few people (they are always the loudest and meanest) that were not having it. Remembering that last time salmonella was the big sticking point I gathered so many statistics to make their head spin. However, that didn't seem to be the issue with this group.

Noise. Smell. Lowering property values. Those were their big arguments and no matter what statistics I gave them they didn't agree. Some of their fine points...

• It is okay for loud dogs to bark all day because they are dogs. That's what they do. And chickens are louder. Period. Nope... chickens are louder than dogs.
• Residents won't be able to sell their house if there are chickens next door. No one will want to live near that.
• My neighbor has a farm nearby and brought chicken poop to fertilize her garden and it smelled horrible forever. Worse than all other fertilizer because that smell goes away. Not chicken poop smell. Nope. Never goes away.
• No one will want to move to our town anymore. We will be a laughing stock. People will call us 'Chicken town'.
• If the ordinance says they have to be 10 feet from the property line they aren't going to put it by their house, they will put it under my bedroom window and I will have to hear chickens all day and it will smell and I won't be able to live there.
• It is okay that dogs are loud because they can go inside. Chickens will be loud outside all day long.
• My property values!!!!!!
• Chickens are farm animals for a reason. We aren't farmers. They should only be on farms.

So these are just a few of the things I heard last night. The worst part is that they were so angry about it. Just really seething. I am totally happy having rational discussions with people that have differing opinions but it is hard to talk to people that come at you yelling with such hostility before you've even opened your mouth. I just smiled, nodded, told them I heard them and countered as much as I could. But I would really LOVE any rational points I can bring up to counter these ridiculous arguments since they didn't want to hear facts (chicken decibels vs. barking dogs decibels) (amount of dog waste vs. chicken waste). Help me please find ways to reach these people and appeal to their senses (if they have any)

 

[Aunt Angus]

I'm a teacher, and every year, I have my students work to enact some change. Sometimes they're successful, sometimes not. What I've seen work is:

• Volume of support (signatures, letters of support, etc.)
• Finding common ground with the governing board and then proposing change
• Going waaaay overboard with the request, then backing off to appear more conciliatory
• Finding similar situations where the proposed change worked

My students have successfully advocated for changing local bike laws, revamping the movie theater, changing the dates of the county fair, getting water bottle refilling stations installed on school campuses, getting paper recycling programs started throughout the city, and even got a parking ticket of mine reversed.

The MOST convincing argument one student made was a very well-edited video showing footage of other similar-size schools that had water bottle filling stations and interviewing students, custodians, etc. She even toured the county landfill to show how many single use water bottles were in the local landfill and how many fewer were in the neighboring county where there were many water bottle filling stations installed. It focused on the positive impact. Maybe you could get local kids involved, maybe FFA kids?

(Just FYI - that girl will be starting her freshman year at UC Berkeley in the fall on a full ride scholarship)

 

[Serin]

I don't live in suburbia. I didn't ever really talk to her, but I know she moved because she got sick of my rooster.
I don't think your adjacent neighborhoods have yet learned that they'll lose money raising chickens.

As they say, if you want to become a millionaire raising chickens, start off as a billionaire.


As it is, statistics show the backyard poultry fad is rapidly fading. More and more people are getting out of chickens as, again, they are learning that they are losing a lot of money. Coupled with lack of veterinary care and a short lifespan/lay period, chickens are not suited to be the next suburban household pet.

This is simply not true. I live in a very urban area outside Chicago and in the past six years, chickens have popped up in backyards ALL OVER, on little 1/4 acre lots. Some people have roosters. People keeping garden chickens are not in it to save money, there is nothing cheaper than factory farmed eggs. They're in it for a healthier more ethical food product or just as a hobby. The birds seem to do very well in urban gardens and are much quieter than people's dogs - give me neighbors with hens any day.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

This whole thread is baffling to me.

A quarter acre is over 10,000 sqft. I live on a quarter acre. If you're assuming the pen size is 10sqft/bird you could fit 1000 birds in that space. Which is wack and unreasonable of course. You also have the house, the front lawn, the driveway, garage, etc. But ultimately, on my 1/4 acre property I have the spit end of my back yard as a chicken pen. It's just the last 20' of a lawn over 125' long. It's still 20x40, which is 800 sqft. I have 8 chickens in it and a 4x8' coop. How on earth does anyone think that chickens won't fit in that sort of space??? It doesn't make any sense....
The smell is a non issue because of the substrate. I use deep litter from woodchips. It doesn't smell like anything. I would lay down in my chicken pen on a tarp and spend all day there and not smell anything except for right after a chicken poops.
Losing money on chickens should be a non starter. Nobody expects to make money when they buy a dog, so why was that ever even brought up? Also nobody expects dogs, or turtles or fish or any other pet to be sanitary. I mean, heck, I just got a puppy and he came with tapeworms. It's an individual responsibility thing there - some people let their dogs lick them on the mouths some don't.
The extra roosters produced from owning hens, well, that's a moral argument, not a legal one.
The constitution says nothing about keeping chickens???? What???
And why would you even come into a thread like this just to tell someone "no don't do that you're wrong for what you want". Like, be helpful. Yeesh.
This whole thread just seems non helpful and wack to me. It's largely not really accomplishing the OPs goals I think.

Anyhow, OP, I would start by trying to argue based on the councils negligence.

There are, of course, countless places that allow chickens. Cleveland and its surrounding suburbs have all been chicken friendly for YEARS now. Nobody calls Cleveland 'chicken town', that's dumb. My own location I own a rooster (grandfathered in) and my immediate neighbor's house sold last year. And before that it was a rental that was successfully rented, even though a rooster lived next door. My neighbor across the street recently tried to give me even MORE chickens actually. They wanted to rehome a friends chickens with me this past week (they found a home somewhere closer to their original location).
A large number of major cities and city suburbs allow chicken ownership and haven't seen property values decline substantially. But of course you know that. The only way to win the debate here is to change the code of conduct to make the bullies sit down and shut up.

Start with recordings of council meetings. Do they allow hecklers for other issues? Is the council really acting in the city's best interest if they are ignoring sound research data? I would start over with the intention to establish boundaries for debate. Can you ask the council to remove hecklers? Can you ask the COPS to remove hecklers?

If you can establish boundaries for debate that require sources, you can easily bring this to a close. You obviously have sources and they don't. It's pretty quick to shut down most fact-based arguments with "Ok, here's my sources. These come from experts in the field. Where are yours?" when they don't have any.
But it sounds like right now you're not dealing with good debate etiquette - it sounds like you're dealing with a good ol boys club of bullies. Expose it. Record it. If they're being this awful during your issues, are they being this awful about city contracts? About deciding how to handle health and sanitation systems? About other ordinance changes? If so they're negligent to their whole city. If not, they're (possibly illegally) targeting you as an individual. I would break it open and try to get them voted out and push for evidence-based legislature.
Additionally MANY cities that have tried to fight ordinance changes allowing hens have found themselves in costly long-term legal battles with residents. It becomes a very public issue. They get the media involved. Letter writing campaigns start. It could be very costly for the city to try to enforce this, especially if neighbors who have chickens already are asked to get rid of them. That's not very fiscally responsible either.

Keep getting your signatures, get small communities involved like schools and churches, contact the media, raise heck. Ask hard questions VERY publicly like 'Is *city council member name* ignoring evidence-based arguments regularly? Or it just when interacting with specific people they don't like?'. Make OTHER people think about that too. That's the only way you're going to get the job done in your current environment. Make the council members wonder if they're keeping their jobs next year. Maybe even find and endorse people who could replace them in your community who are suited for the job.

Good luck OP. I hope you find more support.

 

[Eevee]

Is it possible to maybe see if councilors in the ward (or what you have in the USA) would be willing to do a pilot project before fully allowing people to have chickens. Here in Edmonton, Alberta we had a pilot project where only something like 19 people in the city could have hens. After a couple years it was capped at 50. This year the cap was removed and anyone can apply for a permit to have hens. There are strict regulations an coop size, having only 3- 6 hens/no roosters, and we are inspected by our bylaw officers. You could get some documentation on any urban citys that do allow hens, and see how those programs regulations are.

I think many people when they think of allowing chickens...that people are going to have 50 chickens in the yard and the neighbour hood will smell like a barn. They are legit concerns so having an idea of what would and would not be allowed,and how complaints (smell/noise) could be dealt with could help with your arguments.

 

[khorvath]

I'm surprised that the people holding the meeting allowed the hecklers to continue.
Can you go get more signatures on your petition? I like rosemarythyme's ideas for setting up suggested regulations that may assuage the naysayers' fears.

So we have hundreds of signatures (its only been out for 2 weeks mostly through word of mouth which is great). We have a defined plan based on all the ordinances for neighboring communities that include getting a permit, having coop structure guidelines, a limit to number of hens, no roosters etc. We are trying to do everything we can to be good neighbors. Much more than some do with their dogs for example.

 

[khorvath]

Thanks everyone. We are working on it. So many of the towns near us, including Chicago allow hens. All those towns have strict guidelines that outline everything from minimum coop size to end of life. There are so many examples from towns near us that have been doing this for years (decades even) and have no issues so I don't believe it can't work for our town.

 

[khorvath]

While I don't condone their hostility, I can't really blame them. I can see the rationale behind not wanting chickens in a suburban setting and I rally behind that. One of the biggest things is that chickens are on the menu for everyone. Chickens attract pests and pests are an unwelcome nuisance.

My neighbor can attest to a lower property value from me having chickens. Then you also have the whole issue of disease transmission like the Newcastle lesson that SoCal learned earlier this year.

I have to respectfully disagree. All of the other neighboring, much more affluent towns in our area that allow hens have reported no issues in lowering property values. There are a TON of suburban areas that allow hens. I'm curious to know how your neighbor can be sure that a lower property value is a direct result of your hens and not something else. That seems really hard to prove.

 

[khorvath]

I don't live in suburbia. I didn't ever really talk to her, but I know she moved because she got sick of my rooster.
I don't think your adjacent neighborhoods have yet learned that they'll lose money raising chickens.

As they say, if you want to become a millionaire raising chickens, start off as a billionaire.


As it is, statistics show the backyard poultry fad is rapidly fading. More and more people are getting out of chickens as, again, they are learning that they are losing a lot of money. Coupled with lack of veterinary care and a short lifespan/lay period, chickens are not suited to be the next suburban household pet.

Cyprus, not sure if your tone is meant to be condescending on purpose of if this is just a case of digital misunderstanding? Clearly, we disagree and I'm guessing this board is full of people on both sides. And that is okay.

We are talking about a small coop with 4-6 hens. Not a factory production. No one intends to sell eggs or meat. I get that you don't think hens are appropriate for anywhere but the country but there are thousands of households across the country in 'suburbia' and larger cities that disagree. Again, that is okay and I completely respect you having that opinion and hope we can 'agree to disagree'.

I think it is great that you want to make sure people know what they are getting into and I do worry about this as a "hipster fad". I've been doing a lot of research for 3 years, have attended classes, visited coops, looked at the cost. I am not taking this lightly. But I wouldn't do that with any other animal in my care either. I'm sure I could learn a lot from you and will happily read through your old posts to continue learning more.

Moving forward I guess I'd like to see if anyone else has input that can offer solutions to my initial post as I know there are suburban hen keepers on here.

 

[rosemarythyme]

The problem is if the naysayers are absolutely set on their "facts" it'll be hard to change their minds, regardless of how much evidence you bring to the contrary.

What might help if you haven't already done so is to come up with a possible set of rules to show how chickens could be managed in a backyard with minimal impact to neighbors. I know not everyone is keen on having a lot of restrictions, but think of it as a compromise - maybe if there's enough rules in place some of those it'll address some of the concerns of the naysayers (or people on the fence). Maybe prospective owners need to get a permit or adjoining neighbors approval first. Have a limit of 3 or 4, hens only, chickens must stay confined in a coop or run at all times, chicken enclosures must be cleaned X amount of times a month/quarter, etc.