Help! Young pullet brutalized by young cockerel

[SassysMom]

If you give epsom salt baths, be careful not to chill the bird. There is no reason to give "baths" to a bird unless the bird's vent is so pasted it can't be cleaned any other way. If a bird is eggbound, it will sometimes help, but not like Calcibird or Calcivet with calcium, D3, and magnesium will. The hen is 5 months old. What do you mean "fortified her food"? What are you feeding her?

What herbs are you feeding her, and how much daily?

Letting the bird frequent muddy areas with earthworms which are vectors for intestinal worms and protozoa is not a good idea.

So the stool sounds normal. What color is it, and are there any white urates capping the droppings?

Thank you for replying. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear that Rosie is now a 9 mo old English (LF) Red Orpington. She has been bathed in a heated room and dried as soon as possible. With both her first experience, and now this one, the area around her vent, and feathers, has been totally wet, pasty and not coming clean without being soaked.

Fortified, in this case, means she is getting ACV and probiotics, electrolytes and oyster shell and egg shell, grit to help her with any digestive problems. She is also, currently, on Grower food. She is on a mix of herbs, approx. a tsp. full in the am and the pm. All are safe for chickens of all ages and are organic. She has never tested positive for worms.

If she was with her flock, she would have no other choice than to be outside in the mud. We live in the Seattle, WA area and we have had thunderstorms and rainfall for a week now. While the flocks each have their own coop, it is used mainly for sleeping. The outside pens, and the fenced foraging areas are all mud now. I had her out for about a half hour in the front yard where it is wet but covered in grass. The rest of her days and nights for the past week have been inside a dog kennel, in our house.

Her stool is a medium brown color. No white urates or capping as the stool is continuous. I am assuming it's the urates that are making her feathers and hind area wet. The only way fecal matter comes out is pasted to her litter and her hind area.

Additional advice is greatly appreciated.

Connie

 

[Eggcessive]

I'm sorry to be back on this subject, but Rosie's in Sick Bay, again. She was removed from her flock for more than a month and was doing fine. Three days ago, I was doing her weekly check and right away I could smell a foul odor in her vent area. She was full of poop sticking to that area.

Back to the sterile scrub and Epson salts baths. Getting the area cleaned up, I found the area around the vent swollen and red. The vent is no longer prolapsed, thank goodness, but the area around there was swollen. What worries me most if that she seems to just be producing soft stool continuously. She's never laid an egg and with her current condition, I don't think that she could. She's eating and drinking normally. Chatters away at me. I've fortified her food, and she has probiotics on board. She's devouring herbs fresh from my garden (the herbs are in her food. She's not in my garden). She's alert, but carries her back-end tucked. I took her out with me so she could free range on some grass, mud and worms. She loved that, and wanted to go in with the other chickens that she could see through the fence.

Anyone with experience with this condition? Even though she's alert and active, I don't know how she can live. It seems as if she keeps eating and it goes right through her she won't retain any nutrients. FYI, the stool is soft and formed, like it's a continuous tube. No diahhrea.

I don't want her to suffer, but she sure doesn't seem like she is.

Help! please...

Connie

Its possible that she has some damage to the cloaca from her previous prolapse, and it could be a chronic problem. I would suggest to keep her feathers trimmed around her vent since they will catch droppings if the hen is fussy there. Since some herbs could be loosening her stool more, I might stop them for a few days or a week to see if it makes a difference. The problem with herbs is that there is no official amount that is safe, and fresh is more potent. If the feed is good and fresh, they shouldn't need much else unless it would be a powder probiotic and vitamin supplement a couple of times a week. I prefer vitamins with minerals that don't have electrolytes in them. Chickens don't have the enzymes to digest dairy products, but I wonder if you would give her a few cottage cheese curds or let her peck on an apple just a bit. Those 2 things will help firm up stools in people with diarrhea. The apple contains pectin. Apple juice or applesauce may cause diarrhea, so don't use them.

 

[Michael Apple]

Thank you for replying. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear that Rosie is now a 9 mo old English (LF) Red Orpington. She has been bathed in a heated room and dried as soon as possible. With both her first experience, and now this one, the area around her vent, and feathers, has been totally wet, pasty and not coming clean without being soaked.

Fortified, in this case, means she is getting ACV and probiotics, electrolytes and oyster shell and egg shell, grit to help her with any digestive problems. She is also, currently, on Grower food. She is on a mix of herbs, approx. a tsp. full in the am and the pm. All are safe for chickens of all ages and are organic. She has never tested positive for worms.

If she was with her flock, she would have no other choice than to be outside in the mud. We live in the Seattle, WA area and we have had thunderstorms and rainfall for a week now. While the flocks each have their own coop, it is used mainly for sleeping. The outside pens, and the fenced foraging areas are all mud now. I had her out for about a half hour in the front yard where it is wet but covered in grass. The rest of her days and nights for the past week have been inside a dog kennel, in our house.

Her stool is a medium brown color. No white urates or capping as the stool is continuous. I am assuming it's the urates that are making her feathers and hind area wet. The only way fecal matter comes out is pasted to her litter and her hind area.

Additional advice is greatly appreciated.

Connie

Lay off the ACV. Use 1 tsp Probios dispersible powder per gallon of water 1 x a week. Use vitamin-electrolyte powder only 2-3x a week. You mentioned herbs, but not the type or quantity. Too many greens can interrupt digestion. Parsley is potentially toxic to chickens. Lack of calcium and other minerals can cause nerve problems. Moistened feed and an occasional small piece of bread soaked in buttermilk is good for a treat. If you must supplement greens young kale is very nutritious given sparingly. Grit and oyster shell should be mixed sparingly in feed or allowed free choice.

To deal with muddy runs, cleaned river sand is a good addition to help with drainage. Constantly muddy areas only invite health problems. Lack of urates could mean many things including dehydration and kidney trouble. You said your bird hasn't tested positive for worms. How was the test performed (fecal float, etc.) ? Worms can exist without being visible to the naked eye. Have you ever wormed with an effective anthelmintic, treated for Coccidiosis with Amprolium, Sulfadimethoxine, etc.? If enteral problems exist for too long, intestines can be damaged and prevent proper nutrient absorption for the life of the bird.

 

[SassysMom]

Its possible that she has some damage to the cloaca from her previous prolapse, and it could be a chronic problem. I would suggest to keep her feathers trimmed around her vent since they will catch droppings if the hen is fussy there. Since some herbs could be loosening her stool more, I might stop them for a few days or a week to see if it makes a difference. The problem with herbs is that there is no official amount that is safe, and fresh is more potent. If the feed is good and fresh, they shouldn't need much else unless it would be a powder probiotic and vitamin supplement a couple of times a week. I prefer vitamins with minerals that don't have electrolytes in them. Chickens don't have the enzymes to digest dairy products, but I wonder if you would give her a few cottage cheese curds or let her peck on an apple just a bit. Those 2 things will help firm up stools in people with diarrhea. The apple contains pectin. Apple juice or applesauce may cause diarrhea, so don't use them.

Thank you, Eggcessive. Rosie is in very good spirits today and eager to eat. I've been wondering if her cloaca is damaged. I'll trim her feathers today. She has few pasty stool matter in her litter this morning, which could be good or bad. I'll stop the herbs (oregano, mint, lavender, verbena, calendula and maybe another 2 or 3, approx. 1 tsp. with am and pm feeding. She does have access to her crumbles, free feed. The Probios arrived yesterday. Will that be good for her? I will give her the cottage cheese curds and I can give her an apple to peck at (which may help with boredom while she's confined. You say, "cottage cheese curds or....an apple." I'll try one or the other, then. Maybe a couple of days on one, switch to the other. Would you suggest stopping the calcium (egg shells or oyster shells)? I'm concerned that her body will attempt to produce eggs and possible egg impaction. I don't mind treating her if this is a chronic problem, but is this necessarily a death sentence? Thank you, once again, for your help.

Connie

 

[enola]

Canned pumpkin may help with the diarrhea. I think keeping her on short daylight hours to keep her from laying would be beneficial. Complete healing of the cloaca is important.

 

[SassysMom]

Lay off the ACV. Use 1 tsp Probios dispersible powder per gallon of water 1 x a week. Use vitamin-electrolyte powder only 2-3x a week. You mentioned herbs, but not the type or quantity. Too many greens can interrupt digestion. Parsley is potentially toxic to chickens. Lack of calcium and other minerals can cause nerve problems. Moistened feed and an occasional small piece of bread soaked in buttermilk is good for a treat. If you must supplement greens young kale is very nutritious given sparingly. Grit and oyster shell should be mixed sparingly in feed or allowed free choice.

To deal with muddy runs, cleaned river sand is a good addition to help with drainage. Constantly muddy areas only invite health problems. Lack of urates could mean many things including dehydration and kidney trouble. You said your bird hasn't tested positive for worms. How was the test performed (fecal float, etc.) ? Worms can exist without being visible to the naked eye. Have you ever wormed with an effective anthelmintic, treated for Coccidiosis with Amprolium, Sulfadimethoxine, etc.? If enteral problems exist for too long, intestines can be damaged and prevent proper nutrient absorption for the life of the bird.

I use the organic ACV with the mother. Is that a problem, too? If so, is it because it provides too much acid? The Probios arrived yesterday and I'll make it up today. I covered the herbs in my reply to Eggscessive and I've never used parsley. I can moisten her food and see if she digests it better. Right now, I'm putting the grit and oyster shell in her food.
Where do you get cleaned river sand? What about the controversy, sand vs no-sand b/c of possible impaction? The stool samples have been fecal floats, done by our small animal vet (dogs & cats). We live on an island and the avian vet is 5 hrs and 2 ferries away. I have treated for worms, prophalactically, with Piperazine, and Coccidiosis with Amprolium successfully.

I appreciate your information. Like anything, it's a lifelong learning process keeping chickens.

Connie

 

[SassysMom]

Canned pumpkin may help with the diarrhea. I think keeping her on short daylight hours to keep her from laying would be beneficial. Complete healing of the cloaca is important.

Thank you for bringing up the short daylight hours. I've been wondering about this. With our gray skies and short daylight hours now, Rosie is getting very few hours of light. I don't use artificial light where she is and I was thinking she must be wondering where her daylight went. She's been talking away when I go in the room with her.

Using pumpkin has always been my go to when our puppies were dealing with diarrhea or constipation. We raised Leonberger dogs for 20+ years. The fact that it helps both is interesting. Rosie doesn't have diarrhea, but continuous stool coming out of her. I'll make changes slowly and one at a time. So far, she is responding to confinement and one on one care.

Thank you for your help!

Connie

 

[Michael Apple]

I use the organic ACV with the mother. Is that a problem, too? If so, is it because it provides too much acid? The Probios arrived yesterday and I'll make it up today. I covered the herbs in my reply to Eggscessive and I've never used parsley. I can moisten her food and see if she digests it better. Right now, I'm putting the grit and oyster shell in her food.
Where do you get cleaned river sand? What about the controversy, sand vs no-sand b/c of possible impaction? The stool samples have been fecal floats, done by our small animal vet (dogs & cats). We live on an island and the avian vet is 5 hrs and 2 ferries away. I have treated for worms, prophalactically, with Piperazine, and Coccidiosis with Amprolium successfully.

I appreciate your information. Like anything, it's a lifelong learning process keeping chickens.

Connie

ACV is not an essential. Given too often it can be defeat the purpose of calcium absorption. It can upset the digestive flora probiotics serve the purpose of replenishing. It may be a good antibacterial to use on occasion, but no more than copper sulfate is good for. Yet people will make all sorts of claims about apple cider vinegar, much the way they do with diatomaceous earth. I never heard of any controversy regarding sand in the runs. I've been using it now for a number of years and never had that problem. Impacted crops likely happen because people don't deworm with effective anthelmintics, and instead believe DE, cayenne pepper, or some herbal remedy will. People also feed all kinds of garbage, or excessive protein to their birds, and then wonder why their crops are impacted. I've seen posts proving such to be repetitive on this forum. Cleaned river sand is a coarser sand than some of the others available at landscape supply yards, where mulch, soil, and gravel are sold. It assists with drainage during the wet season, gets worked into soil by birds, and is easy to rake excess droppings in the dry season. Of course, rotating yards and time on range is a good way to keep runs from accumulating too much fecal matter as well.

Piperazine is not very effective even for roundworms. Ceacal, capillary, tapes are a threat, especially capillary worms (also known as hair or gong worms) which get in the crop, esophagus, trachea. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the impacted crop and respiratory distress posts are due to capillary worms. Albendazole, Oxfendazole, Fenbendazole, Pyrantel are all better choices than Piperazine. Ceacal worms cause inflammation of the ceaca and carry the Histomonas protozoa which causes Histomoniasis. The same drug used to remedy that is used for canker, Metronidazole or Ronidazole.

 

[SassysMom]

ACV is not an essential. Given too often it can be defeat the purpose of calcium absorption. It can upset the digestive flora probiotics serve the purpose of replenishing. It may be a good antibacterial to use on occasion, but no more than copper sulfate is good for. Yet people will make all sorts of claims about apple cider vinegar, much the way they do with diatomaceous earth. I never heard of any controversy regarding sand in the runs. I've been using it now for a number of years and never had that problem. Impacted crops likely happen because people don't deworm with effective anthelmintics, and instead believe DE, cayenne pepper, or some herbal remedy will. People also feed all kinds of garbage, or excessive protein to their birds, and then wonder why their crops are impacted. I've seen posts proving such to be repetitive on this forum. Cleaned river sand is a coarser sand than some of the others available at landscape supply yards, where mulch, soil, and gravel are sold. It assists with drainage during the wet season, gets worked into soil by birds, and is easy to rake excess droppings in the dry season. Of course, rotating yards and time on range is a good way to keep runs from accumulating too much fecal matter as well.

Piperazine is not very effective even for roundworms. Ceacal, capillary, tapes are a threat, especially capillary worms (also known as hair or gong worms) which get in the crop, esophagus, trachea. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the impacted crop and respiratory distress posts are due to capillary worms. Albendazole, Oxfendazole, Fenbendazole, Pyrantel are all better choices than Piperazine. Ceacal worms cause inflammation of the ceaca and carry the Histomonas protozoa which causes Histomoniasis. The same drug used to remedy that is used for canker, Metronidazole or Ronidazole.

Some good news, I hope. I fed Rosie a few cottage cheese curds this am (about 5) and she dove right into them. When I did the final cleaning of her crate at 8:30 tonight, the newspaper under her wasn't nearly as wet as it was as late as this morning, and the pasty stool was extremely decreased. I did give her a tsp. of pumpkin with her late meal and she cleaned the pumpkin up b/4 she started in on the crumbles. I'm going to take another fecal sample into the vet, but would it be too disruptive to Rosie to worm her now, just to be sure? I don't want to overwhelm her or her digestive system. I also don't want her suffering from anything like roundworms.

RE: Sand vs Shavings/pellets/ straw, etc. I'm pretty sure the controversy will show up in a Google search. I read that is particularly dangerous to have sand in the runs if they are going to get wet. I would love to have all of the runs dri(er) this winter. Last winter was a nightmare. Sand may be prohibitive with 6 coops/runs on our upper level, and 4 condos/runs in a 196 sq ft + area in the lower area. But, if there's a way to safely accomplish dry to drier runs I'm going to find it out!

More updates tomorrow (actually, today). I'm depending on the great information I'm getting here. I'm confident there is a will and a way to get my Rosie on the road to recovery. Is it possible that an egg could be inside her, behind the stool in her?

Connie

 

[JensChickies]

Good luck to you and Rosie.