Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[hellbender]

I will be assessing for egg production - but I can get that back in three or four generations. What I am more concerned about is assessing the frame of the animal - how wide the back is, how broad the breast is. How sturdy the legs are. Because correct me if I am wrong but is the Naked neck not more of a Meat dual purpose VS. and egg dual purpose?

You are correct and you are totally wrong. It depends upon the strain of birds you are dealing with. Just like any breed of any animal, if traits aren't stressed and maintained, they are down the shoot.

Don't count on getting massive egg production from a strain of NNs that have been bred for meat...you might get good production from the pullets but after the first molt...you will be lucky to get two or three eggs per bird per week.

Oh..Don't count on turning meat birds into layers in three or 4 generations either...If you want egg production, buy from a strain that has been bred for such over many generations...(No, not a sales pitch...no eggs or birds for sale).

RON

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Ohh I know that egg laying ability and size of body are inversely related.

I am not expecting a massive bird, nor good egg layer. They are really more important to me for a cross. You can increase egg production (in both weight and amount) in 3-4 generations it's hard to do and involves lots of hatching but can be done. If I decied to breed them I will be selecting for 8,12,16 week growth in cockerels and 8,16,20,24 week growth in pullets

 

[hellbender]

Ohh I know that egg laying ability and size of body are inversely related.

I am not expecting a massive bird, nor good egg layer. They are really more important to me for a cross. You can increase egg production (in both weight and amount) in 3-4 generations it's hard to do and involves lots of hatching but can be done. If I decied to breed them I will be selecting for 8,12,16 week growth in cockerels and 8,16,20,24 week growth in pullets

I applaud your tenacity. We are now joining the effort to 're-invent' the wheel too, and will be very happy if we can make great strides in 4 or 5 generations.

EDIT: Just one more point about egg production and body size being inversely related. My NNs are massive...well above the *standard, with some hens topping 9 pounds and they lay like Leghorns and their eggs are large to Extra Large...Not everything follows the an accepted pattern.

You have to breed for what you want.

 

[thedragonlady]

Ohh I know that egg laying ability and size of body are inversely related.

I am not expecting a massive bird, nor good egg layer. They are really more important to me for a cross. You can increase egg production (in both weight and amount) in 3-4 generations it's hard to do and involves lots of hatching but can be done. If I decied to breed them I will be selecting for 8,12,16 week growth in cockerels and 8,16,20,24 week growth in pullets

Egg laying ability and body SIZE, are not related. Egg laying, and body SHAPE are.The UK Orps have short, very deep bodies. They are not heavy layers. My US Orps, who have longer, but very deep bodies, lay their socks off. There is a reason that the SOP calls for a longer body in a dual purpose breed. I keep the longer bodied birds from my UK crosses, and they all lay well.

 

[hellbender]

Egg laying ability and body SIZE, are not related. Egg laying, and body SHAPE are.The UK Orps have short, very deep bodies. They are not heavy layers. My US Orps, who have longer, but very deep bodies, lay their socks off. There is a reason that the SOP calls for a longer body in a dual purpose breed. I keep the longer bodied birds from my UK crosses, and they all lay well.

Great minds!!!

 

[gjensen]

Egg laying and type is about capacity. Capacity can be had in a number of types.

It is still my opinion that we are not very far off from many of our large dual purpose birds from being productive again. Generally, not always, the lay rate is fine.

Selecting for a few points along the way would go along ways.

Big birds should be and could be laying large and extra large eggs. Hatch from the larger eggs. Medium sized eggs from large hens kills me.

They should come into lay at an appropriate time. Birds that want to wait until Feb. before they really get going are useless feed burners.

Birds that molt especially late into the season extend the laying cycle. If they molt late, and finish up quick, a few more eggs can be teased out in the winter. There is less loss of production.

Often the better bred birds are closely line bred. An extra family to keep the vigor up might make a difference. And selecting from vigorous active birds. The most vigorous male is not always the quietest and "sweetest" male. (that still kills me) Often the most vigorous male is active and assertive. Not as well behaved as we think males should be today.

So in summary, I think that is all we have to really do with these birds. We do not need trap nests etc. We could simply have a preference for birds that play along. Standard bred birds do not have to perform like the extreme and un attractive counterparts. If that is what I wanted, that is what I would get.

200 large eggs from a well bred attractive bird that is ready for the table at a reasonable time is a treasure. Much more difficult to acquire and maintain than any other class. Many of the finest can't do that. And the other extreme is birds that can exceed that number by a substantial amount, but are very poor examples of the breed or no breed at all.

Just my opinions.

 

[capayvalleychick]

I have a question about selecting for egg production.

I read that high producing egg layers only last for a couple years or so. Many dual purpose old breeds will keep laying many more years than that, yet they don't lay as many eggs in a year.

So, my question is, if you have a Standard bred dual purpose breed and you select toward better egg production, will they lay 200 eggs a year for only a couple years? Or will they lay 200 eggs a year for many years?

In other words, are you increasing total egg production for the life of the hen?

 

[hellbender]

Egg laying and type is about capacity. Capacity can be had in a number of types.

It is still my opinion that we are not very far off from many of our large dual purpose birds from being productive again. Generally, not always, the lay rate is fine.

Selecting for a few points along the way would go along ways.

Big birds should be and could be laying large and extra large eggs. Hatch from the larger eggs. Medium sized eggs from large hens kills me.

They should come into lay at an appropriate time. Birds that want to wait until Feb. before they really get going are useless feed burners.

Birds that molt especially late into the season extend the laying cycle. If they molt late, and finish up quick, a few more eggs can be teased out in the winter. There is less loss of production.

Often the better bred birds are closely line bred. An extra family to keep the vigor up might make a difference. And selecting from vigorous active birds. The most vigorous male is not always the quietest and "sweetest" male. (that still kills me) Often the most vigorous male is active and assertive. Not as well behaved as we think males should be today.

So in summary, I think that is all we have to really do with these birds. We do not need trap nests etc. We could simply have a preference for birds that play along. Standard bred birds do not have to perform like the extreme and un attractive counterparts. If that is what I wanted, that is what I would get.

200 large eggs from a well bred attractive bird that is ready for the table at a reasonable time is a treasure. Much more difficult to acquire and maintain than any other class. Many of the finest can't do that. And the other extreme is birds that can exceed that number by a substantial amount, but are very poor examples of the breed or no breed at all.

Just my opinions.

And an excellent opinion it is! My big NNs would be laughed out of any show, likely even a local county fair but they would shine in the egg production class.

I try to compare these birds to Holstein Dairy Cattle. Big, flat boned and carrying no extra fat and for that matter, not much meat. essentially not fit to eat, unless one is starving.

I do caponize 3 to 4 week old cockerels and they make a pretty fair to middlin table fowl.

 

[Ripster]

In my experience good standard-bred birds remain productive well beyond one or two years. One of the reasons is their body capacity. Hatchery birds just don't have the body capacity to be very productive for much more than one year.

Here's a link to a book "The Call of the Hen" I think it's been mentioned here before. I think it is one of the best books for helping folks get an understanding about what capacity is and how to select for it. https://archive.org/details/cu31924003144031

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: ~~ inversely related. Say what?

Sounds like one of those "Math" terms!!

Say it ain't so ! , and while you're at it, please define it.
Thanks,
Karen