Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[CanadianBuckeye]

I have a great pic of last years cockerels, but this year's chicks are between three days and four weeks old. I need to take some pics of the breeders, but haven't yet.

Stunning! They are truly beautiful.

 

[bnjrob]

H,

How is everyone doing? Got the tree removed from the smashed poultry yard.
Now just need to take the year to reset and start again with White Chanteclers.
Best,
Karen

Finally got a halfway decent hatch out of our McGraw Javas that came from the old birds that Bob Blosl stumbled upon just before his death. Have had them for a couple of years now but have not really been impressed with them at all compared to our Urch line birds. For now we're continuing to work with the McGraws - having another bloodline is a plus, since the Java bloodline world is quite small. Had much better fertility and hatch rate with the group that just hatched, so am hopeful that we'll continue to see improvement. I actually have this new hatch group being raised by a couple of my Urch-line broody hens and am hoping that the more calm demeanor of our Urch hens will help this group of chicks decrease their flightiness. I'm hoping we can improve this line without having to resort to infusing any Urch blood into them.

 

[MagicChicken]

I have just realized how far I've come with the Silver Campines and I am thrilled. The first couple of years were spent trying to gather stock and dealing with bad luck. The next couple of years I hatched every egg my hens laid between the first of December and the first of June, which wasn't many. I did that last season and managed to hatch (with some help and tears) about 200 chicks and to raise most of those, but had a hard time finding the 12 I wanted to use for this spring's hatch. They were not perfect, but a sight better than what I started with. This year, I have collected that many eggs in six weeks! I have had great hatch rates, and vigor so far. I had my first 100% hatch rate with one batch and the lowest was 85%. The chicks are poppin out of the shells and running around eating and drinking within an hour of hatch. Time will tell if the quality of this springs chicks is as good as the vigor has been, but I have high hopes! I am just thrilled with my progress and with my birds.

Well done! And your birds are beautiful. Keep up the good work!

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:

I hope you are able to keep the lines separate. I had to blend another line of Black Javas into my Urch line, because the dog attack wiped out my best Urch birds a couple of years ago and I was missing some traits from the flock. This second line is much flightier than the Urch birds. Hope I can breed them calmer over time. First I've got to work on vigor and body type.

Vigor seems to be improving in my flock. One pen had excellent hatch rates. I'm watching those chicks carefully, hoping they don't develop any major flaws as they grow out. I'd like to use as many of them as possible next year because none of my other birds have had hatch rates like that. (70-100%.)

Things got out of control last year when I hatched out 65 chicks. I don't have that much room. This year I only hatched 40. Not as many as I'd like, but a more manageable number. Can't wait to see how they grow out.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Finally got a halfway decent hatch out of our McGraw Javas that came from the old birds that Bob Blosl stumbled upon just before his death. Have had them for a couple of years now but have not really been impressed with them at all compared to our Urch line birds. For now we're continuing to work with the McGraws - having another bloodline is a plus, since the Java bloodline world is quite small. Had much better fertility and hatch rate with the group that just hatched, so am hopeful that we'll continue to see improvement. I actually have this new hatch group being raised by a couple of my Urch-line broody hens and am hoping that the more calm demeanor of our Urch hens will help this group of chicks decrease their flightiness. I'm hoping we can improve this line without having to resort to infusing any Urch blood into them.

Sadly, it seems that there are only hatchery mottled Javas to be found this side of the border :-( Glad to see there are some people still interested in Javas!

 

[bnjrob]

I hope you are able to keep the lines separate. I had to blend another line of Black Javas into my Urch line, because the dog attack wiped out my best Urch birds a couple of years ago and I was missing some traits from the flock. This second line is much flightier than the Urch birds. Hope I can breed them calmer over time. First I've got to work on vigor and body type.

Vigor seems to be improving in my flock. One pen had excellent hatch rates. I'm watching those chicks carefully, hoping they don't develop any major flaws as they grow out. I'd like to use as many of them as possible next year because none of my other birds have had hatch rates like that. (70-100%.)

Things got out of control last year when I hatched out 65 chicks. I don't have that much room. This year I only hatched 40. Not as many as I'd like, but a more manageable number. Can't wait to see how they grow out.

You don't think too hard about vigor until you see that it isn't there. I am glad that we have multiple colors and multiple bloodlines though - it has let us really get a better feel for what is genetic as opposed to environment.

With as many setbacks as you've had with your flock, unless the new vigorous chicks have something like crooked backs, you might consider breeding even flawed ones. I've taken that gamble and had it work. I don't hatch a ton either, normally only about 30 or 40 eggs, and still I got improvement by breeding birds with a terrific trait even when they had a flaw. I would breed flawed birds again if I need to in order to get another really good trait out of them.

This year we're gonna hatch more than we really can handle though because we've got to get these McGraw numbers stabilized before the birds get any older. They just are doing everything possible to prevent their bloodline from being perpetuated. If we absolutely have to cross in a new bloodline, it may be better to let the line die out. It seems that they were very poorly attended to for a long time - Dr. McGraw spent a lot of time trying to make up his own new chicken breed and doesn't seem to have paid attention to the Javas much in his old age, and whoever got them from him didn't do anything with them. If they had been well attended to, then Bob Blosl would not have likely stumbled across those few old birds and taken them in to try to save them. I've seen the photos of the couple of McGraw flocks that folks got from Dr. McGraw's son in more recent years and I'm not impressed with them either, SOP appearance-wise. I hate to think of the line fizzling after being *found* again, but darn it, these guys just don't make it easy.

Sadly, it seems that there are only hatchery mottled Javas to be found this side of the border :-( Glad to see there are some people still interested in Javas!

That's too bad. I wish there were more serious Java breeders that could work together and get some breeder stock up there to your neck of the woods. There are a good many Java keepers down here in the States now, but they aren't doing much with breeding to the SOP/production. Most seem to just be wanting to make money by selling *rare* birds. Most of the few true Java breeders can't even ship. I can't blame them though, it's a pain and now we've even put getting NPIP on hold because we're not happy with some of the stuff that our state does for NPIP - stuff that has nothing to do with the health of the birds, just political type baloney meant more to keep a thumb on small poultry farmers. I've also had a number of bad experiences with people wanting my birds and then flaking out on even coming to get them from me. It's made me consider never bothering to let one of our Javas leave the farm anymore and just eating every one that I can't use for breeding. People think I'm running a hatchery and that I should have whatever age bird they want, when they want, like I were a fast food restaurant. Then I'll get folks that claim they will wait for me to have some, then when I have some set aside for them, they tell me that they decided not to wait and got a different breed from someone else that could get them chickens sooner. I've even hatched specifically for people who then flaked out and left me with birds I did not need or want after they claimed that they were desperate for Javas. I love Javas and think they are great birds but dealing with the people that aren't as serious about Javas as they claim to be - makes me just want to keep my Javas to myself and if they die out when I die, so be it.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I wish there were more serious Java breeders that could work together and get some breeder stock up there to your neck of the woods. There are a good many Java keepers down here in the States now, but they aren't doing much with breeding to the SOP/production. Most seem to just be wanting to make money by selling *rare* birds. Most of the few true Java breeders can't even ship. I can't blame them though, it's a pain and now we've even put getting NPIP on hold because we're not happy with some of the stuff that our state does for NPIP - stuff that has nothing to do with the health of the birds, just political type baloney meant more to keep a thumb on small poultry farmers. I've also had a number of bad experiences with people wanting my birds and then flaking out on even coming to get them from me. It's made me consider never bothering to let one of our Javas leave the farm anymore and just eating every one that I can't use for breeding. People think I'm running a hatchery and that I should have whatever age bird they want, when they want, like I were a fast food restaurant. Then I'll get folks that claim they will wait for me to have some, then when I have some set aside for them, they tell me that they decided not to wait and got a different breed from someone else that could get them chickens sooner. I've even hatched specifically for people who then flaked out and left me with birds I did not need or want after they claimed that they were desperate for Javas. I love Javas and think they are great birds but dealing with the people that aren't as serious about Javas as they claim to be - makes me just want to keep my Javas to myself and if they die out when I die, so be it.

It's unfortunate, but it's totally understandable given that people seem to have very short attention spans these days. I do think that a lot more of the heritage breeds will be gone within a couple of generations.
When I started out with chickens last year I tried sourcing some Black Javas. There's someone here in Ontario who was thinking of playing around with some of their smaller Jersey Giants, to see if they could re- create a Java- like bird, but I'm not sure how that project is going.

 

[bnjrob]

It's unfortunate, but it's totally understandable given that people seem to have very short attention spans these days. I do think that a lot more of the heritage breeds will be gone within a couple of generations.
When I started out with chickens last year I tried sourcing some Black Javas. There's someone here in Ontario who was thinking of playing around with some of their smaller Jersey Giants, to see if they could re- create a Java- like bird, but I'm not sure how that project is going.

I think you're right and it is sad that people don't seem to value things enough to keep them around. Always wanting what they think is newer and better but never stopping to see if what is older can meet their needs and desires.

They could probably turn some Jersey Giants into Javas if they kept at it. Be a lot faster to just get some Javas up there though and not have to create them. I know there are Javas in Maine, New York, Minnesota, and Washington. You'd think that somebody would want to work to get them over the border so that you guys up there could have some.

 

[3riverschick]

Finally got a halfway decent hatch out of our McGraw Javas that came from the old birds that Bob Blosl stumbled upon just before his death. Have had them for a couple of years now but have not really been impressed with them at all compared to our Urch line birds. For now we're continuing to work with the McGraws - having another bloodline is a plus, since the Java bloodline world is quite small. Had much better fertility and hatch rate with the group that just hatched, so am hopeful that we'll continue to see improvement. I actually have this new hatch group being raised by a couple of my Urch-line broody hens and am hoping that the more calm demeanor of our Urch hens will help this group of chicks decrease their flightiness. I'm hoping we can improve this line without having to resort to infusing any Urch blood into them.

Hi, bnjrob,
What exactly is wrong with the McGraw birds? Is it a matter of body symmetry? Or just temperament?
Thanks,
Karen

 

[bnjrob]

Hi, bnjrob,
What exactly is wrong with the McGraw birds? Is it a matter of body symmetry? Or just temperament?
Thanks,
Karen

Better question would be what is right with them. Yes, temperament is an issue - flighty and annoying.

Vigor is poor. We don't tolerate ill birds and so illness and death outside of butchering is rare. Yet with the small number of these birds that we have, there has been a high death rate. My hubby is a veterinarian, so necropsy and pathology is routine here for a bird that just suddenly falls over dead, but even that hasn't given a definitive explanation. Granted, in a couple of years we've only had 3 birds just suddenly keel over, but when you have had less than two dozen of them, 3 deaths is a high ratio. Especially when compared to our Urch line, of which we've had less deaths than that, in a much larger flock, over more years. We've also had to kill one of these pullets for a bad vent prolapse - have never had a vent prolapse in the other bloodline among many more females. Until the hatch this week, fertility had been poor and the hatch rate among fertilized eggs was poor. Laying sucks, normally I'm lucky to get an egg a day from 7 hens but they did improve a little bit this year. The hens have often refused to take any calcium, no matter which form of calcium was offered - so shells have often been thin. Finally got them to take their calcium this year, likely contributing to actually being able to hatch some chicks. No matter what cock has been with the hens, they resist so hard that the cocks often give up trying to mate. All these things combined are why we've had such few of these birds even though we've had the line for a couple of years already.

Type is mediocre to poor. Size is too small. Comb DQs are present in several of them.

Bob sent a guy near me a few of these chicks to get him started in poultry keeping - he did not have any other birds. That guy gave me several dozen eggs, of which there was a poor hatch. Due to him having so few birds, we hatched from pullet/cockerel eggs, not adult eggs because we were afraid he'd lose his birds and have none left. We didn't butcher any females except the vent prolapse bird. We butchered a few of the males that were the poorer specimens. Shortly after hatching those birds here, the guy decided that chickens weren't his thing and he gave me his remaining birds after having lost some to predators and for aggressive behavior. Most of the few birds we have were hatched and raised here, the exact same way as our other line. So for those that hatched here, a change in environment would not have been a factor in their poor performance.

They have all received the same husbandry. Over the years we've had some fowl pox, mites, too much mud, flood waters, and mice in the pens. But this was among the entire flock of close to 100 birds, not just restricted to these McGraws. So I can't say that environment has been the problem.

I know Bob was not able to get a lot of eggs from the birds he had and they were apparently older birds that he was given. But I am still hatching from 4 year old Urch hens/cocks and their laying/fertility/hatch rate is still better than these McGraws - most of which are two years old with just a few being 3 years old. So again, these McGraws are not performing at the same standard as our Urch line.

With everything that we have looked at to explain their poor performance, it really appears that genetics/poor breeding is the culprit.

The size and type and even the comb DQs aren't really a big issue for me. All of those can be improved - have done it with our other bloodline. But the lack of vigor resulting in poor ability to reproduce, and not being hardy and *bomb proof* like our Urch birds are - those are the things that are the most frustrating and that I'm worried may not be fixable.

I'm hopeful that with the good fertility and hatch rate this time, that things are improving. My broody hen experiment is going great. The chicks are thriving, despite being a little smaller than the chicks from the other bloodline that they are growing up with. And with the Urch hens' calmer demeanor, I'm hoping they will start decreasing the flightiness of the McGraw line environmentally.

I've got more eggs to go into the incubator as soon as the rest of my guineas hatch, so I'll have a third hatch with this cock, and hopefully fertility and hatching will be as good as the hatch I had this week. I'm going to swap cocks out and see if I can't get some hatched from another cock this year. And if that goes well, I have a third cock that I want to try to hatch from.

This stuff is not for the faint of heart. If I had started with this line, I'm not sure I would have wanted to continue after seeing their poor performance. But since I have seen the improvements we've made in our other birds, in a short amount of time, it gives me some hope that these McGraws are salvageable.