Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[hellbender]

When you find some, let me know!

Still, Karen's pullet is looking strong. They'll make an interesting combo.

On a side note, perhaps we could all try to be better this year with posting pic of birds growing out. I know, I know, I'm horrible at actually doing it myself

They shouldn't be hard to find at all and I will show what I mean in this post...eventually.

Over the past 6 months, I've acquired 2 trios of Florida White rabbits from arguably the top breeder in the country. I will never show rabbits but the breeder understands that I want the best for my purposes and she sells me breeding/show quality rabbits for $400 bucks per trio. She assures me that I could take some of the rabbits she sells to me and beat her at any given show on any given day and I believer her.

Keep in mind, she selects and grades her young. Anything that in not breeding/show quality goes into her freezer or that of some family member.

Lets get back to the White Dorkings. They wouldn't be hard to find.

Some poultry breeders raise their prospects to young maturity and either sells them or keeps them for their own purposes. This can be seen among the better breeders of Oriental and game birds. Their reputations mean everything to them and to 'whole-sale' their stock would bring ruin to them and their breed...and of course...their REPUTATIONS.

Then we will find folks who deal in various breeds, including White Dorkings, who sell day old peeps in lots of various sizes, without any effort to distinguish the quality or gender of these peep, leaving the buyer 'holding the bag' for whatever may or may not come from those peeps. There is little doubt in my mind that if someone wanted to find a White Dorking to cross into their Sussex birds, one (or many more) could be found in any number of auctions or chicken 'swap' arenas.

Until the last scenario is reduced or done away with, there will be plenty of Sussex, White Dorkings, NNs and just about any other breed to be had at these venues and the quality of the breeds as a whole can not be expected to improve.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

This can be seen among the better breeders of Oriental and game birds. Their reputations mean everything to them and to 'whole-sale' their stock would bring ruin to them and their breed...and of course...their REPUTATIONS.

Then we will find folks who deal in various breeds, including White Dorkings, who sell day old peeps in lots of various sizes, without any effort to distinguish the quality or gender of these peep, leaving the buyer 'holding the bag' for whatever may or may not come from those peeps. There is little doubt in my mind that if someone wanted to find a White Dorking to cross into their Sussex birds, one (or many more) could be found in any number of auctions or chicken 'swap' arenas.

Until the last scenario is reduced or done away with, there will be plenty of Sussex, White Dorkings, NNs and just about any other breed to be had at these venues and the quality of the breeds as a whole can not be expected to improve.

Well, Hellbender, perhaps unwittingly, you just threw me into the pot

.

White Dorkings are some of the rarest birds out there. Sand Hill is the only large-ish hatchery that sells them. The slowly--and minutely--growing population of people raising White Dorkings is almost completely traceable to our farm. None of them are very public, though. People contacted us for a few seasons really wanting stock, and I didn't sell. Finally, I realized that, if people know what they're getting into, it's better to have more people working with them, so I decided to sell stock. I don't like shipping eggs, nor do I like shipping started stock. The first is too much of an unknown the second is more work than I have time for. So,I ship boxes of 25 chicks each with multiple cocks, and I cross my fingers and hope they get a trio or a couple of pairs out of the lot. Given, I'm not charging $400.00 a trio, but I don't have the time to do otherwise.

What I can offer folks is that I send them healthy stock, from birds that made the "finalist" level here. Several of the pullets producing chicks for shipment were birds I showed over the last season. I'm very public about them still needing much work, and I make no claims for show quality. I post public images of the birds at all stages as well as product images of meat and eggs. I can say fairly securely that they're probably the best White Dorkings in North America, and having dialogued with a few of the most prominent White Dorking breeder in the UK, I have seen (as much as photos show) that our stock is more or less on par with the best stock there. However, folks need to know that when they're ordering White Dorkings, they're not ordering White Rocks or White Wyandottes. It's just the way of it.

I hope my reputation is based on my honesty about where my birds are at, because as my list above shows, I can list 20 other large fowl that are easier to get into than White Dorkings.

 

[gjensen]

Joseph, I have seen that debate go on and on and on. I could argue the pros and cons of any of the methods. There is just no perfect way. As for me, send me the box of chicks, and I will do my own choosing. If that is not an option, I will consider the others. When I decide I want particular birds from a particular person, that is what I am going to get.

Your reputation will be the quality of your birds. If you have good birds, people will want them. All of the jibber jabber that gets rattled on about strains, lines, etc. is useless. If people make a mess of them, that will be their own reputation. The ones we worry about what they think, are people that we respect and can see through the c**p.

The more anyone makes their birds public, the more they open themselves up to a variety of opinions. Most of which are irrelevant.

Sell them and share them as you please. They are your birds, and they speak for themselves. If I wanted to try either of the two breeds that you have, you would be the person that I would contact.

Some of the game bird breeders, are particular, and some breeders in general are. To each their own There is good and bad birds in that crowd like any. I do not see where the overall quality is any better. The best birds are always in particular circles.

 

[hellbender]

Well, Hellbender, perhaps unwittingly, you just threw me into the pot

.

White Dorkings are some of the rarest birds out there. Sand Hill is the only large-ish hatchery that sells them. The slowly--and minutely--growing population of people raising White Dorkings is almost completely traceable to our farm. None of them are very public, though. People contacted us for a few seasons really wanting stock, and I didn't sell. Finally, I realized that, if people know what they're getting into, it's better to have more people working with them, so I decided to sell stock. I don't like shipping eggs, nor do I like shipping started stock. The first is too much of an unknown the second is more work than I have time for. So,I ship boxes of 25 chicks each with multiple cocks, and I cross my fingers and hope they get a trio or a couple of pairs out of the lot. Given, I'm not charging $400.00 a trio, but I don't have the time to do otherwise.

What I can offer folks is that I send them healthy stock, from birds that made the "finalist" level here. Several of the pullets producing chicks for shipment were birds I showed over the last season. I'm very public about them still needing much work, and I make no claims for show quality. I post public images of the birds at all stages as well as product images of meat and eggs. I can say fairly securely that they're probably the best White Dorkings in North America, and having dialogued with a few of the most prominent White Dorking breeder in the UK, I have seen (as much as photos show) that our stock is more or less on par with the best stock there. However, folks need to know that when they're ordering White Dorkings, they're not ordering White Rocks or White Wyandottes. It's just the way of it.

I hope my reputation is based on my honesty about where my birds are at, because as my list above shows, I can list 20 other large fowl that are easier to get into than White Dorkings.

Joe...If you feel you're in the pot, It was not I who put you there.

I have made it no secret that I find using pullets as breeding stock to be more than a bit disdainful. For production birds, I

personally use hens that are at least 18 months old and the cocks are generally well over two years.

My point still holds...The breed does not matter.... White Dorkings, White Wyandottes or my 'Jurassic Park-like' Naked Necks.

If folks don't carefully place their good stock in the hands of dedicated fanciers with the wherewithal to breed, care and exhibit

Them, there will be this same chasm 50 years from now. I've yet to make my first show, even as an onlooker, but I know that

large fowl of every breed is down and the bantams are up in popularity, If what I read on this board is to be believed and I have

seen judges making this assertion.

By the way, if you hadn't called me out on the post I made to Karen, I wouldn't have brought you into this. I like your birds,

from my very limited knowledge of the breed and I'm a bit concerned about that 'lethal' gene...I hope that gets some serious

attention from people willing to work to deal with it's elimination. I think I understand it to be in the Silvers but it might

well be hidden somewhere in the entire breed.....I would know less about that than almost anyone else.

Respectfully,

RON

 

[3riverschick]

That's interesting. I would have thought it would be harder trying to keep the black parts where they need to be.

Having white tail/wing feathers is the most annoying part of our Mottled Javas. It's been interesting to me that even in the old photos of them, most Mottled Javas appear to be more "splashed" with white, than having the distinctive V-shaped white feather tips that the SOP says mottled birds are supposed to have. We have been able to decrease some of the white in our Javas though, but it is going to take more time before we see fewer white wing/tail feathers. The color project we have going has not yet turned out with what we were expecting, and we mostly wound up with black feathered birds with the first generation. But that actually may help with getting some of the excess white out of our flock. The drawback though is that the birds that have more black in them, also seem to be winding up with more pink soled feet instead of the required yellow. But we're having fun and seeing improvements so the work is worth it.

I agree. I always considered Mottled Javas more of a "Splash bird". I just figured they called them Mottled because I didn't remember seeing the term "Splash" back in the old texts. I thought splash was a more recent term. One thing, Speckled Sussex also have the mo gene. I am intrigued by it, tho it is too complicated a pattern for me to breed at my age.
I like to go looking for articles on how to breed Speckled Sussex correctly. Was digging in a book database a while back and came across a small article. Only time I have ever seen the advice. If memory serves me correctly, it was the legendaty Sussex Judge Clem Watson who wrote it. I remember I was searching specifically for his works that night because they are so hard to find. It was advice on getting the tipping smaller on the Speckled Sussex. The author stated that the thing to do was to work on the ground color. To remove all peppering and deepen the hue to that rich magogany instead of the lighter shades. I know Speckled Sussex are a tri-colored breed and Mottled Javas are a 2 color breed. Still , it caught my attention he was saying to work on the ground color. I wish I knew why and how the ground color effects the color way at the other end of the feather. I think Speckled Sussex as a whole need a lot of work on the tipping. I see a lot more I would also called "Spangled".
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[Yellow House Farm]

No worries at all! We all go cruising along here with one thought process flowing out of and into another. If makes sense that every once in a while we'll be at playing bumper cars. My thoughts are that people need to handle their own infrastructure, which includes showing and developing relationships with mentors who can support them. I do agree that mature trios from breeders who either live in the vicinity or share shows I far and away the best way to go. That relationship is a ripe training ground. That is, however, not always doable, n which case I'm all for getting chicks and then working with more experienced mentors and APA judges in one's region to develop an approach to the fowl. Through group selection and learning the birds will get there.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

All mottled large fowl are in need of attention when it comes to the quality of mottling (Anconas, Javas, Sussex, Houdans, OEGs). I'm not sure that the Mottled Javas ever really received the kind of refinement breeding that Anconas received. Indeed, I've read various passages that asserted that they had not.

 

[Serica]

I'm just now catching up on this thread. Serica, it is not necessary to hatch 100s of birds a year to produce good birds. I keep no more than a dozen hens in my Buff Orps.. I've never kept many birds in all my years of showing and breeding. The whole key is selection, and by that I mean having a picture in your mind of your ideal bird, and sticking to selecting those birds that come closest to it. I raise Buff Orps, and my goal was to produce a true dual purpose Buff, that not only would I enjoy looking at every day, but that would lay early, and produce good carcases at a young age on the cockerels.

Find a breed you enjoy looking at, with the sort of temperament you can live with too. If you buy your first birds from a reputable breeder,you will do well, and have a lot of enjoyment from having quality birds.

Thank you. I was told to search out your posts and I shall. I appreciate the input very much.

Quote:
Thank you so much for this list. You know it's one thing to visit a website and have them say "such and such" is on the watch list. That is helpful but for newer folk like hubby and me, having someone who sees and knows the different breeds, who visits shows and have actually seen what is lacking wave a flag and point sure does take some of the pressure off. There were some breeds on this list that I honestly never gave a thought to because I understood them to be in better shape with a strong following.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
I'm also having trouble with the darker birds winding up with more pink soled feet. (I've got Black Javas. They are black birds that are supposed to have dark eyes, black shanks, black toe-tops, and yellow soles.) My dark birds tend to have pink soles, and the yellow-soled birds are too light. I figure it is going to take me 3-5 years to combine those traits into one or two birds, and several more years before it is even remotely "fixed" in the flock. Maybe more, because I have no idea what hidden pitfalls will show up to mess up the plans.

Paying attention to color would ordinarily take a back seat to structure of the bird, but my flock is small and I would like to keep it closed. I can't afford to lose some of these recessive breed characteristics while I'm working on the body shape. It's a balancing act.

Wing tags and toe punching have helped tremendously. I have been setting up complementary breeding pairs. I make sure that at least one bird in each pair has definite yellow soles so even if the resulting chicks have pink soles, in theory they will be split for yellow and could pass on the yellow trait to some of their offspring. Eggs are separated in the hatcher so I know which chicks came from which pairings. Chicks get toe-punched when I remove them from the hatcher. They go into a small indoor brooder for a couple of days, until I am sure they are eating and drinking and bouncing around. When they are a few days old I wing-tag them and put them in the large brooder.

The wing-tag data has turned out to be invaluable. My notes for several of the darker chicks say "faint yellow" for the soles when they were only a few days old. Now that the chicks are a couple of months old the "faint yellow" has disappeared and they all look pink-soled. But I can go back and see which birds looked like they had some yellow when they were younger. Sure enough, if I compare them with a truly pink-soled bird in the right light I can still hallucinate a faint yellow cast to the soles on the ones that were labeled "faint yellow" when hatched. I still wouldn't expect them to pass muster at a show, but I would feel more comfortable about breeding the ones that had "faint yellow" as chicks than I would about breeding the ones that never had yellow - as long as their mate had definite yellow soles.

We'll see if it works. If not, I will eat well. Can't wait until I get to the point where I can cull all the pink-soled birds without worrying about losing those dark genes from the flock. It will come eventually. If not, at least I will eat well

 

[BGMatt]

I'm also having trouble with the darker birds winding up with more pink soled feet. (I've got Black Javas. They are black birds that are supposed to have dark eyes, black shanks, black toe-tops, and yellow soles.) My dark birds tend to have pink soles, and the yellow-soled birds are too light. I figure it is going to take me 3-5 years to combine those traits into one or two birds, and several more years before it is even remotely "fixed" in the flock. Maybe more, because I have no idea what hidden pitfalls will show up to mess up the plans.

Paying attention to color would ordinarily take a back seat to structure of the bird, but my flock is small and I would like to keep it closed. I can't afford to lose some of these recessive breed characteristics while I'm working on the body shape. It's a balancing act.

Wing tags and toe punching have helped tremendously. I have been setting up complementary breeding pairs. I make sure that at least one bird in each pair has definite yellow soles so even if the resulting chicks have pink soles, in theory they will be split for yellow and could pass on the yellow trait to some of their offspring. Eggs are separated in the hatcher so I know which chicks came from which pairings. Chicks get toe-punched when I remove them from the hatcher. They go into a small indoor brooder for a couple of days, until I am sure they are eating and drinking and bouncing around. When they are a few days old I wing-tag them and put them in the large brooder.

The wing-tag data has turned out to be invaluable. My notes for several of the darker chicks say "faint yellow" for the soles when they were only a few days old. Now that the chicks are a couple of months old the "faint yellow" has disappeared and they all look pink-soled. But I can go back and see which birds looked like they had some yellow when they were younger. Sure enough, if I compare them with a truly pink-soled bird in the right light I can still hallucinate a faint yellow cast to the soles on the ones that were labeled "faint yellow" when hatched. I still wouldn't expect them to pass muster at a show, but I would feel more comfortable about breeding the ones that had "faint yellow" as chicks than I would about breeding the ones that never had yellow - as long as their mate had definite yellow soles.

We'll see if it works. If not, I will eat well. Can't wait until I get to the point where I can cull all the pink-soled birds without worrying about losing those dark genes from the flock. It will come eventually. If not, at least I will eat well

Could this be feed related? Throw in some corn, marigold extract or alfalfa and see if it doesn't yellow them up. If not, just make sure you keep some of the yellow ones around, yellow is recessive if I remember correctly, so if you breed yellow to yellow you should only get yellow.