How to add protein

[Chicona]

My protein is from ground chicken beef carcass meat etc and rabbit

How do I measure it ? Or dry it to a meal without loosing nutrition?

I make my own food but the 10% protine I don’t know how to gauge with raw meat

 

[MysteryChicken]

@U_Stormcrow

 

[saysfaa]

My protein is from ground chicken beef carcass meat etc and rabbit

How do I measure it ? Or dry it to a meal without loosing nutrition?

I make my own food but the 10% protine I don’t know how to gauge with raw meat

Commercially, meat meal is made by drying what is left after the fat is rendered out of meat. Rendering usually starts with the trim, so generally has small bits. Possibly, they grind it anyway.

I suppose it can be made the same way at home.

I'm not sure what you mean by measuring it. Do you mean determining its nutritional profile? Figuring out how much to add to the ration? Something else?

Where did 10% protein come from? As in why are you asking about measuring that much, although I'm also curious about how you determined that was the amount you wanted.

 

[Chicona]

Commercially, meat meal is made by drying what is left after the fat is rendered out of meat. Rendering usually starts with the trim, so generally has small bits. Possibly, they grind it anyway.

I suppose it can be made the same way at home.

I'm not sure what you mean by measuring it. Do you mean determining its nutritional profile? Figuring out how much to add to the ration? Something else?

Where did 10% protein come from? As in why are you asking about measuring that much, although I'm also curious about how you determined that was the amount you wanted.

It’s a hoe saltin guide I follow and calls for 10% fish meal
I don’t add fish meal as I don’t like it’s process and crap that’s within I like to do it myself know it’s right
But I have wet meat atm not dried I didn’t want to start cooking it and destroy anything
But yea working ratios

30 corn 30 wheat 20 peas 10 oats hand of kelp and minerals and spices
10 fish meal

Adding raw instead of fish meal is hard to work out ?

 

[saysfaa]

I don't know enough to be much help. I've only started learning how to figure rations.

The first step is understanding the difference between "dry matter basis" and "as fed". Then you can compare the amount of protein (or any other nutrient) in fish meal (which is dried to about 10% moisture) to the amount in meat (which is up to about 75% moisture.) Click here for a website that explains it better than I can it is explaining cattle feed but the concepts are the same for figuring chicken feed.

Then, ideally, you would have your ingredients tested because the nutrients in one sample of a given ingredient can cary by a staggeringly huge amount, especially in plants. Since that is usually too expensive for individuals, the next best option is to use feedopedia or similar reputable sources to find how much of each nutrient is in each of your ingredients. Feedopedia has fish meal and the other ingredients but not fresh meat so another sourve is needed. I recommend a university, USDA, or FDA source rather than a blog-type or youtube-type source.

I think Saladin's ration formula is better than most when fed along with a managed pasture. He puts a LOT into managing his pastures, though. I subscribed to (and poured over, lol) his "Grazier" magazine for several years. Do you mean a nutribalancer when you say "minerals and spices"?

Edited to fix typos

 

[RainbowRabbits]

It’s a hoe saltin guide I follow and calls for 10% fish meal
I don’t add fish meal as I don’t like it’s process and crap that’s within I like to do it myself know it’s right
But I have wet meat atm not dried I didn’t want to start cooking it and destroy anything
But yea working ratios

30 corn 30 wheat 20 peas 10 oats hand of kelp and minerals and spices
10 fish meal

Adding raw instead of fish meal is hard to work out ?

Where'd you find Joe Saltin's feed guide? (I've been looking at doing Jason Rhodes which requires more ingredients).

 

[Chicona]

Justin’s recipie is from joes but soy free
They both talk about them
Google
Justin Rhodes chicken feed recipie and it’s every link hehe

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Answer. YOU CAN'T.

One of the cautions I regularly offer (or @Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay will hop in and mention) is that making feed at home necessarily relies on averages, because you can't assay your feed at home.

Fish meal is a massively moisture reduced, mostly dry ground feed product. It is protein dense because there's little water and often limited fat in it after processing.

Meat is... Meat. That's all you know for certain. Its moisture content is typically in the 75% RANGE. Meaning 100g of generic "meat" is about 75g water, and 25g everything else. If its 80/20 beef, that's potentially 5g of fat, and 20 g of protein. If its 97/3 trimmed skinless checken breast, that's potentially 24g of protein, 1g of fat, both with negligible amounts of other things.

For comparison, "generic" fish meal is about 68% protein after accounting for moisture content, and one of the most popular fish meals on the market is about 60%.

So, superficially, you are going to need about 3x the weight (or more) of raw "meat" as a fish meal substitute, and you are (most likely) significantly raising the fat content of your final feed.

What meet you start with, how its created, what is qualities are are already unknowable - you can make educated estimates, but no better than that.

 

[Chicona]

Answer. YOU CAN'T.

One of the cautions I regularly offer (or @Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay will hop in and mention) is that making feed at home necessarily relies on averages, because you can't assay your feed at home.

Fish meal is a massively moisture reduced, mostly dry ground feed product. It is protein dense because there's little water and often limited fat in it after processing.

Meat is... Meat. That's all you know for certain. Its moisture content is typically in the 75% RANGE. Meaning 100g of generic "meat" is about 75g water, and 25g everything else. If its 80/20 beef, that's potentially 5g of fat, and 20 g of protein. If its 97/3 trimmed skinless checken breast, that's potentially 24g of protein, 1g of fat, both with negligible amounts of other things.

For comparison, "generic" fish meal is about 68% protein after accounting for moisture content, and one of the most popular fish meals on the market is about 60%.

So, superficially, you are going to need about 3x the weight (or more) of raw "meat" as a fish meal substitute, and you are (most likely) significantly raising the fat content of your final feed.

What meet you start with, how its created, what is qualities are are already unknowable - you can make educated estimates, but no better than that.

Rabbit is lean as no fats but highnprotine
Chicken is chicken chickens chicken eh

You can’t seems a bit steep I mean someone DOES to be able to sell it

Fish meal is full of impurities metals Kroc acid and normally harvested from waste and close shore fish all of which I can’t call organic clean or safe so I have to find alternatives
I fish I hunt and I farm so I have fish rabbit and chicken at hand
Before people buy food from shops they had to do it their self and before fish meal they had to too so it can’t be like it’s sworn agains ?

So would I add 30% more meat meal or just chuck them a carcass every few days ? Some say throw em all the road kill

 

[saysfaa]

...

30 corn 30 wheat 20 peas 10 oats hand of kelp and minerals and spices
10 fish meal

Adding raw instead of fish meal is hard to work out ?

This is how to work out raw meat instead of fish meal

How to formulate rations (I found someone to teach me last night, he's done it for many years for dairy cattle and other livestock - he said, find an old textbook and use their formulas to get in the ballpark at least. There isn't a good way to figure it out from scratch - the best way is an expensive computer program. The second best way is trial and error.)

If you get it only a little off, you probably won't notice the effects or will attribute the effects to something else.

Step 1, find the percent moisture
This website explains how

Step 2, find the nutritional value on a dry matter basis

Step 3, calculate the amount of the nutrient in the amount of ingredient used in your batch of feed

Step 4, calculate the amount of each nutrient in 100 pounds of your mix (which is the same as Step 3 if your batch is 100 pounds but that takes more math. Or at least put more of the math earlier in the process.) This gives the percentage of that nutrient in the feed.

Step 5, compare the percentage in the feed to the percentage needed by the chick. Each nutrients has a minimum and a maximum but only one is given for many feeds because the other limit is not going to be approached if the basics are met.

Examples fish meal and raw wild rabbit cuts.

Nutrients for the fishmeal from Feedipedia; for the raw rabbit is from This website

Fish meal at 7.9% moisture with methionine at 2.8% on a dry matter basis.

100 pounds fishmeal x 0.921 is 92.1 pound dry matter x 0.028 is 2.58 pounds of met

100 pounds raw wild rabbit cuts at 74.4% moisture with methionine at 2.1% on a dry matter basis.

(338 g of water in a 454 g serving = moisture level)
(2471 mg of met in 116 g of dry matter = 2471 in 116000 = 2.1 met

100 pounds of rabbit x 0.256 is 25.6 pounds of dry matter x 0.021 is 0.54 pounds of met

You would need to feed 5 times more rabbit to get the same amount of methionine. That is enough more to unbalance the other nutrients significantly.

No guarantees I did all the math right. i struggle with math at the best of times.