Jest Another Day in Pear-A-Dice - Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm in Alberta

[ronott1]

BYC double post!

 

[ronott1]

I took a genetics class years ago and I have to say... There's still a piece of me that whimpers and wants to shrink away when punnetts squares come up. Tediously calculating out the probabilities in a multi gene cross. Oh the peas...
However that is fading now that I've got something real to look at and tinker with, I find myself returning to the big eyed kid full of wonder that I use to be

Quietly hoping to see more of your winter preparations and/or set ups. Are you heating your coops? Water? We just added a wind barrier over top of the wire in the out door run. Cheapo shower curtains from dollarama did the job pretty well and if they shred up in the wind they're easy to replace. I'm sure the clerk was wondering what the hay I was going to do with 7 of them... But she didn't ask.

Use the computer--no need to plot "stuff" out anymore.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I agree with using a computer to an extent. I don't understand genetics and barely remember learning it in school. However, I guess maybe I'm stubborn but I would like to try to understand it to the best of my ability (which is likely pretty low) rather than just leave it up to a machine to do my thinking for me. I would check my work with one though.

 

[CanuckBock]

Somehow we got to discussing the new rototillers and I asked how the new ones were compared to the older models like mine...He said they were good but they did not sell any. Took me a second to get it! What he meant is that nobody new was taking up the hobby of veg gardening...so no sales on tillers, obviously. Makes me feel...

but good too in keeping to the old ways of doing things!


Drove on to the big city of Red Deer and loaded up with meat and dry goods; topped up some of the canned goods, too. Once the snow flies, we cannot always count on Rick being available or having the energy to take me to the city so we consider it part of our winter planning regiment to have the cupboards and freezers stocked up...let it snow, eh! He can be gone all hours plowing snow so others can get out to the well sites...best we take care of "Old Mother Hubbard" so she has stuff in her cupboards to keep the dog & pony show on the go! I spent Saturday morning slicing and dicing as I call it. Packing away the "human provisions."

Then I spent the rest of Saturday afternoon doing what I love doing--cleaning out baby bins and the grow up pens. I love the whole process of doing this...I know, most would find this tedious but I find it ever so rewarding! I get to spend extra time in company with my birds!

So cute...not lil so much, look like mini versions of the adults!



The dark one is one of Dad's turkeys...so sweet!​

Man are they getting cuter...cute as buttons those birds. No more day olds, last hatch was a single turkey and the poult is quite happy and content in with the chooks. LOL...still a tad too small and tender to toss in with the older turkeys! I bet if I had not mentioned one turk, some would not notice it any different from the chooks! LOL

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Pearl blessed us with another egg...number four!

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Rick continued his work on the Parking Building this weekend. This time the task was to secure the framework on the c-cans to hold up the trusses.

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He did some measuring and planning on the profile he needed and came up with this.

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He fired up one of his table saws and cut up a bunch of lengths of this. He then spent two days spiking this together with great big spiral nails to the 2x6's and the 3x12 planks. Old persons don't prefer hammer work but you do what you gotta do. We have a good air nailer for most of his hammering jobs but this one required the good old fashion framing hammer.

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Lookin' pretty skookum.

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"Can you spare a moment to toss a toy for a dog, eh?," says the Fix.

How could you deny a determined l00k like this?​

So the kid was invited for turkey din on Sunday...I processed a Dilute Rusty Black tom on Tuesday.

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He was over three years old and used for breeding. Processed and left to rest in the fridge until Sunday morning. He was 24 pounds live and dressed out to 17 pounds. Nice layer of fat on him...I did not have to add extra oil and there was just TONS of pan drippings for gravy making.

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I refrigerated the bones after dinner and have been boiling them since yesterday...topping up with water as it simmers down. Lovely soup stock...will freeze the extra stock in convenient amounts and make Rick and I a nice turkey soup. Always remember to have on hand an extra celery so I can do up soup too.

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Turkey soup from some years back...thanksgiving 2010.

Veg garden grown onions and celery pan frying for making the turkey bread stuffing. ​

Always try to have celery in the fridge but with stuffing making...go thru two of them on a weekend like this.

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Two of our most thankful for beings...Fixins and our Boy...with a bucket of carrots we just harvested for the T-Day dinner... Can't get a fresher veg than that, eh? Water ready to start boiling on the stove, carrots fresh dug...needless to say, we have turkey leftovers from Sunday but NO carrots...not one nugget left of those! LOL

Part of each holiday we celebrate entails us making sure to share in the bounty with the birds and critters. I have treats like veg peelings for the geese to crunchy munch and extra greens for the rest of the crew!

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Pearl and the other swans are on the grass and clover still (nice warmish fall) but since she is pumping out the eggies that are like three times what a Jumbo chicken egg weighs and she is just under 15 pounds herself...I supplement her with some spinach (no more in the garden, so store bought) each day.

Pearl, she's kinda piggy...but Piper don't seem to mind to stand back let her have the lion's share of the spinach!​

Getting ready for winter to show up...so every few days take on a project to straighten things out...

This is what I tackled on Monday morning. Had Rick take out two bales to the Ram Pasture where we rolled them out and I took the ewes, goats and one llama out to feast upon the plenty.

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Yeh, yeh...I know the pic is fuzzy but this is me holding the camera facing backwards from the direction I was headed and quickly snapping a pic whilst leading the three that allow all the others to follow...head ewe, head goat and well, the only silly girl llama who has a tendency to run off like a big ol' brown poodle if not lead along. So Puella has become quite knowledgeable about what a halter and lead means..."Going somewhere's to EAT on new ground!"

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This is them all out and about eating!

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Gorgeous fall day but I could not stand around galley wagging wasting an entire day watching them munch away.

I had to go back to the general area where we just came from and get about tidying up a mess...a growing mess that needed straightening out!

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This mess is from the storage arrangements we have in place right now for the round hay bales...wooden pallets to set them on and then 2x6's on top the bales with 4x8 sheet material on top which is then tarped with a hay tarp.

Tucky tucky--tidy tidy!​

We are going to do up a more permanent and more easily accessible access storage area for the hay bales but for now, this will do. What boards off the old wood shed that Rick did not use up as strapping for the metal on the Parking building...I have taken down to this area and stacked up on a pallet for construction of this hay storage area. Will be easy peasy to haul out a bale, hang a tarp on the front and just move the tarp back to access a single row of round bales...will be luxurious!

We hate messes and if you leave things all strewed about...they get covered in snow and ice and more often than not, you will run something over with the tractor accessing a bale in January. So besides it being way easier to move in warmer weather...not being covered in heavy snow just makes tidying stuff up way quicker and easier! Always feel extra good when a long weekend sees things you just haven't gotten to completed.

Fires are a nightly thing now...going thru the birch...so each weekend, need to load up the porch wood boxes with a coupla cart loads of splits. Rick knew I was busy with other projects so he went on and did what I hate him doing...he loaded up THREE carts of birch and lined them up outside the porch ramp. I hurried up and took the carts in and ended up he loaded one side of the wood box and I got to unload two carts and then brought a second final one when I realized he had loaded up the house for this week and that left under a cart to completely load the boxes full.

I don't figure I need to worry that this loose pile of birch firewood is going to be in the way of the one side of the Parking Building snow roof dumps if we get the roof up before the snow flies.

Looking gobbled up and that is great! ​

So now we probably have more wood than we need for this week in the Man Porch but then, that just means we have more time for other gotta do duties next weekend. Like feed and straw hauling!

Rick changed courses from the Parking Building (got her all spiked up he did!) and pulled some wrenches on and off this weekend too.

I never question why his hands & arms get all mince meated up monkey wrenching...lookit all the tight confines and metal edges to bite chunks outta yah...​

You certainly have to have the knowledge and want to work on the old vehicles but then you get to really know your ride, hopefully less likely to be left standing on the side of the road with a trailer load of straw on wondering, "What now?"

Ongoing maintenance on the 1989 one ton 4x4. He changed the distributor cap, the plugs and wires. Ran the timing light and did some fine tuning. All stuff I am vaguely able to understand and pretty much useless at past I can push buttons and turn keys when asked.

Icrumba! You don't have to be mechanically inclined to see the wear on this!​

Sheesh...it is a wonder the unit even started let alone ran nicely with the wear on this cap...blah!

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Much better!​

Yesterday Pearl once again gave us a gifty in exchange for the greens.

Pearl's fifth egg!
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I paused to catch my breath and drug a chair into the Chant grow up pen in the Duck Barn...love the friendly babies...this one female is such a curious little girl. She decided that she needed to perch on the handle of the water dispenser and have a face to face, eye to eye steady gaze with me.

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Looking at her legs, time to start adding yellow cracked corn to their rations...in some of the males, not too shabby yeller wise but this is a bantam project girl and she has obviously used up all her yellow pigments from the greens she gets and her egg yolk she was hatched with. LOL

Time to step up and add more carotenoids! The corn also assists in them in firing up those internal heating units of theirs--not so likely to overheat (summer) or add too much fat to their bodies now that it is getting chillier in the nights.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by drumstick diva

Tara love your teaching aids, I would especially love to play with the bride and groom duckies, and all the pink and blue fluffies.. Fixins looks slightly embarrassed to be caught wrapped in her blankie with maybe 300,000 BYC members looking on. Don't tell her that part.

Yes, I know...not a second childhood that I am enjoying but a really good first one--never gonna grow up! Bring on the toys!

Did you notice the plushy ACDog's in the gender demos...now those are the bestest finds!

It is not so much that Fixins is embarrassed...she is in reality making accurate assessments as to the EXACT location of my face and hers...for a quick pouncing BITE ME for my insolence of baby talking to her about her blankey blank! When she was a pupper, she screamed when I hugged her. "Don't hold me!," was her attitude but thankfully, over time, she has decided huggies are good, cushy places to lie are OK when she is tired (she still insists on laying on the gravel first off), and special treats in her dinner like warmed soup broth are acceptable fare for a dog of her status.

Oct 9 - It's a dog's life​

She'd never care who saw her...not even if I captured her vicious attacks...dog's act whatever way they wanna and them retired Princess Warriors are often much worse than the average canine! She's only a heart beat away from savageness...

Tara, I have a genetics question for you, Karin is considering some eggs. What would you get colorwise with a Wheaten-Cuckoo Marans mix roo crossed over a Cuckoo Marans or a Black Copper Marans?

I'll commit to one term only; heterosis...


Hobby names for colour pattern varieties absolutely suck...too many variables, too many meanings from country to country, region to region, too many people unable to keep pure lines pure and too many different interpretations of the exact same things being called something else. Certainly hobby names do not often reflect the actual colour genetics in play and there is NO world standardization...no nomenclature for poultry varieties.

Look at Isabel or Lavender Mille Fleur or Porcelain or Lavender Gold Pencilled or??

Some meanings are complete opposites pending where you are using the term. I call one of my Booted's colour patterns Mille de Fleurs (MDF's) which is Mille Fleur according to the APA/ABA SOP here in North America, and it is Porcelain in Europe or Isabel Mille Fleur in Australia which for me is MDF with a double dose of Lavender...confused, you should be!

Like when I use the term "Dark" for a Brahma, I mean Silver Pencilled but when used for a Cornish..."Dark" means Double Laced and when used for a Brown Leghorn it means Dark Brown Partridge.


So when you ask, right off...the first word is a hiatus...WHEATEN.

For me, the word Wheaten is meant for the e-series eWh which is what I find in my self-Buff Chanteclers and a single dose in the F1 cross to make Red Chanteclers (eWh/eb). A Wheaten bird is wild type with the only mutation being found in the e-series as in Wheaten (eWh) BUT Wheaten is a funny mutation...pending what is in with the eWh...it can act recessive OR dominant pending what other genetics are involved. Think I personally find my Wheatens somewhat simplistic but see here...this is what Sigi's definition for the word Wheaten is

Use the computer--no need to plot "stuff" out anymore.

I agree with using a computer to an extent. I don't understand genetics and barely remember learning it in school. However, I guess maybe I'm stubborn but I would like to try to understand it to the best of my ability (which is likely pretty low) rather than just leave it up to a machine to do my thinking for me. I would check my work with one though.

Which explains the above...Ron will use his chicken calculator and LOVE it and Lacy may want to spend one day this winter sitting with a piece of paper & pencil...doing a trihybrid cross to say she DID IT <<<and never again wants to do it over!!

>>>!!!




So when I am only willing to reply that you will get heterosis (as in outbreeding enhancement or hybrid vigour which will increase the progeny's overall functions biologically speaking) I mean that is all I am willing to commit to. Any guess I make could be right or wrong regarding "colour wise"...with so many variables...how could I lose when all I have to say if my results don't match one of your outcomes is that you needed MORE eggs hatched to get that probability to happen!

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I cannot lose here with ANYTHING I replied back at you...

Should I have deceived you then and pulled a dove outta a hat and called it a wabbit?

Question on dwarfism or the bantam gene.

Could you maybe explain further: dw - recessive bantam, rg - recessive bantam, and Z - dominant bantam?

I have been wondering about it lately in my bantam project. I've been informed that the bantam gene is sex linked to the male but I'm wondering about all the different crosses between bantam males with large fowl hens and all the chicks receiving the bantam gene... however, if you take one of those females and cross her with a large fowl (no bantam gene) does she pass on the bantam gene that she has?

If you have a bird with a bantam gene that is not expressed, does he still pass it on?

What is the difference between the two recessive bantam genes you listed and what is a dominant bantam?

Not without violating copyright laws. You can always do mega research on the Net and download a whole host of scientific studies to study and read up on but I found Sigrid had already done that for me...and wrote a book I could buy. Anything like at what percentage each of the bantam genetics affected the offspring...you can find that in her book.

Wanting to know more ... that's exactly why I bought the book (making an investment in ME I figure!) and you have an entire chapter on just feathers you need to be reading about too. Can you say CHRISTMAS PRESENT??


http://www.chickencolours.com/index.html

You need to buy Sigrid's book from Jerry. Cost for the book is eighty nine pounds sterling (plus shipping--I recall paying about $200 CAN) and a six week wait for it to arrive.


I never needed to understand WHICH of the bantamizing genetics I was able to coax outta the bantam Wyandotte males I used on my standard sized Chanteclers in my bantam Chant project. I had five lil' men (the Wy roos) with my big Chantecler girls and I grew out the offspring and selected from them the ones that were of a suitable size and characteristics I wanted more of. I don't have a DNA lab in my backyard and I don't know any lab (past gender DNA testing for birds) that offers these kind of testing services to the general public. You will likely never know for sure exactly what bantamizing genes you are playing with but if you get the results you want as in bantam sized birds...like who cares exactly which one or ones it was?

A little inbreeding also assists in doubling up on items (purifying them to be homozygous) you want (and maybe do not want...so cull those out of the breeding pens!) and inbreeding makes the offspring SMALLER too! Hybrid vigour is quipped to be a good thing (go search out outcrossing depression, eh!)...but not so in say a bantam duck program...you don't want excessively BIG bantam Call Ducks with a ton of fat on them--not healthy! Hybrid vigour is not all good & glorious in a bantam program...

If you want a bantam bird...remember that hybrid vigour makes off spring BIGGER and FATTER! Healthful sensible inbreeding can be a real bonus in these kind of projects! LOL


Why would a male with a hidden gender linked allele on one his Z chromosomes not be able to pass it on? He possesses it on his Z chromosome so his offspring (female birds determine the gender and what progeny gets the W chromosome, not the male) may well get the Z chromosome and what it is packing or the other Z chromosome that is masking over the other one...being completely dominant to the recessive one.

A female bird with info on her Z chromosome can pass that Z chromosome on to her sons ONLY...what makes them sons (Dad's Z and Mom's Z combines to make Z/Z offspring and the Z/Z makes them a boy--their son) but not her daughters because she passes on the W chromosome which contains nothing genetically speaking like the Z one she has does that is used to make her sons. Girl birds are Z/W and the "W" chromosome is blank of info in that regards.


Dad can be hiding stuff on one of his TWO Z chromosomes but Mom has only one Z chromosome and she is what she is...cannot hide or have what is on her Z chromosome covered over because she has a blank or the empty W chromosome.

I adore that female birds are what they are in gender linked characteristics. You can base your breeding program on your girl birds having nothing to taint the gender linked items you want to have because nothing is hidden...she cannot be hiding something within her purse because she has her tiny miniscule purse and it is empty of stuff and cannot cover over the contents of her much bigger wallet that may (or may not) be full of gender linked STUFF! The one BIG Z chromosome wallet in the female bird is there for all to see! It is only the father that can be hiding something and bring that into the mix...never the mother in this aspect. His wallet can gobble another wallet to hide its contents from view but the two wallets retain all their stuff--nothing is lost, just one wallet's contents are hidden because they are recessive to the other more dominant wallet.

So if you had a pen of Barred/Cuckoo females...that is all the mothers will have to give for the sons they make...one dose of Barred/Cuckoo on their Z chromosome.


The Chantecler breed needs to have yellow shanks and toes. For things like yellow legs which can be gender linked...you do need to wait a while for the yellow pigments to subside (from their yolk sack) to make sure the girls ARE yellow legged genetically speaking. A male bird can be hiding willow legs under his yellow legs...so a yeller legged male used on yeller legged HENs (over a year of age and when we should be using them to breed from, not as pullets!); if you have any willow legged offspring show up and you eliminate things like feed (green grass = yellow and blue pigments) or too may eggs from the daughters given her yellow pigments in the yolks she makes or an illness...you can blame the Dad for being impure for yellow legs!

So you can do the Punnett Square if you like...don't peak below this though because I complete this one for you...so if you wanna try one, you can try this one.

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I have set it up so Dad is impure...his legs l00k yellow but he is hiding one dose of willow on one of his Z chromosomes. Mom is yellow legged on the one Z chromosome she has and hides nada because this is gender linked...her W chromosome holds nothing so is a blank dash as in "-". Mom is yellow legged only in this case.

Here now is the completed Punnett Square...

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The daughters sired by the Dad that is impure...if they are the hens with yellow legs (half of the daughters will statistically be willow legged too)...they are safe to retain for breeding straight away but not ANY of the sons (all the boys will have yellow legs in this case) as they "could" be hiding that Z chromosome from Dad that has the allele for willow legs, so these sons are yellow legged BUT not all of them are pure for it!

An impure Dad (bred to yellow legged hens as above) will produce half his sons that hide willow appearing yellow legs and half his daughters that are willow legged along with pure for yellow legged sons and yellow legged daughters.

Now you can take those yellow legged sons if they are important enough AND test mate these sons to yellow legged females! The proof will be in the progeny the son's produce and if they never produce any willow legged kids themselves bred to a yellow legged female, good chance these males are pure for yellow legs...higher and higher chance the son is pure for yellow with each one of their kids that hatch with yellow (NOT willow) legs when bred to a yellow legged female...it might save these sons for breeding if you need to do that! Keeping in mind I am talking about a chicken breed that WANTS yellow legs!

Gender linked is a good thing in many cases!

Duh, too many questions, my brain is racing on a hamster wheel - no good can come of this.

No worries DD...some good, some confusion, some simpler and some more difficult than one can imagine...

Just shut it down when it becomes UNfun...has to be fun to bother with it. No fun, no bother!

I took a genetics class years ago and I have to say... There's still a piece of me that whimpers and wants to shrink away when punnetts squares come up. Tediously calculating out the probabilities in a multi gene cross. Oh the peas...
However that is fading now that I've got something real to look at and tinker with, I find myself returning to the big eyed kid full of wonder that I use to be

Quietly hoping to see more of your winter preparations and/or set ups. Are you heating your coops? Water? We just added a wind barrier over top of the wire in the out door run. Cheapo shower curtains from dollarama did the job pretty well and if they shred up in the wind they're easy to replace. I'm sure the clerk was wondering what the hay I was going to do with 7 of them... But she didn't ask.

Glad your interest in genetics has been re-started! Helps immensely to know some of it...at least I figure!

Coops are not heated in the sense that we want the birds and animals to become un-acclimatized to severe weather conditions. But at -20C and lower, I will turn on an overheat heat lamp for my geriatric chickens and the bantam ducks that weigh one pound...a one pounder duck, no matter how well bred and how much corn they consume cannot possibly keep up an internal temperature to LIVE thru extreme cold! Make a fist and see how long that stays unfrozen stuck inside your freezers, eh! LOL

We also provide ample deep oat straw (good dead air space in the shafts of straw) bedding and NO winds where they reside...so they can snuggy in and retain a heat bubble around themselves. I'll feed a winter ration with an added 1/3 of yellow cracked corn with whole grains of wheat & oats and regular species rations and then go round after breakfast and top the feed bowls/pans with just yellow cracked corn so any that want to top up with more of the heat generating corn, they can.

We feed cases of human grade romaine lettuce to bring HAPPINESS factors into their staying alive daily functions. Alfalfa bales of hay to nibble at that are put up dry and will not freeze like lettuce does in the extreme cold. Geese get crunchy billable veg peelings and scraps...but them geese and their down--naked webber feets tucked up in the down and they are toasty toasters!

Snow Geese instead of Buff Geese?​

The geese are amazing at how well they do in winter! Since we have so much sunshine in winter here (not like on the WEsT Coast where there can be 90 days straight of rain and overcast skies in winter!)...it is SO inspiring to see them basking in the rays of sunlight in their pen runs at forty below...happy as ever!

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Only the Mandarin ducks, another bantam duck breed, are given swimming water EVERY day...at noon I go out, use a mallet to beat the solid ice outta their rubber tub in a vehicle tire and refill it with fluid water. Not heated water though...they bath at noon and have enough time to dry off, re-oil their feathers (keeping their preen gland from clogging up) and get ready for a winter's night again. There is no bathing when the water freezes...so no temptation to be wet when it is dark and colder out. I put up sheets of tenplast on the Taj Mahal... There is more info in my thread on Mandarins linked in my signature file.

Most all the barns and coops have tenplast put up for winter protection...

Summer​

Winter​

Heated water buckets are provided for the turkeys, ducks, pheasants, and chickens (a drink like hot chocolate since at zero degrees, there can be a 30 degree variance in outside temp to the fluid water in the bucket!) with one exception in the Duece Coop. This coop is insulated and I usually have setty hens on eggs, so often in winter have a heat lamp or two on, which keeps the water fluid in the coop. I do change the chicken waterers from stainless steel pails to rubber pans so if it gets real ugly cold, I can not warp the pails and the rubber pans can be smashed free of ice and refilled with fluid water.

The geese are given fluid water in winter in their rubber buckets, unheated so I beat the frozen water out every day it is cold enough to do this. The Australian Black Swans and the Ruddy Shels live in the Duck Barn in the one section where we provided heat lamps for each of the pairs. Water in rubber buckets that stays fluid because of the location of the heat lamps. I don't expect these imported species to do too well in our Alberta winters without added heat source of a lamp.

Heat lamps and heated buckets are extremely dangerous and one needs to be extra vigilant to make sure these are safe and do not case fires or electrocutions.

Fixins in the sunshine as it sets on Thursday eve...​

Anyone wanna do a TETRAhybrid cross which is four mutations...sixteen phenotypes with a probability/ratio of 81:27:27:27:27:9:9:9:9:9:9:3:3:3:3:1? So that's 256 outcomes...256 squares to fill in...16 squares across by 16 squares down on the Punnett Square matrix!

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

Edit to add pics

 

[vehve]

I definitely got an answer to my question. That I can't deny. But it really did not clear up things for me

I was sort of hoping for something like "The black from the BCM often tends to dominate over other colors" or something similar, but that just made me dizzy. The better half also mentioned something about the e-series, but her color affecting genetics playing is from dachshunds, those tend to have slightly less variance, and the pedigrees are better charted making deductions easier. I sort of didn't understand much of what she was taking about either. I do consider myself as being able to comprehend most things, at least on a basic level, but genetics, along with up to code electrical work, is something that leaves me dumbfounded.

But I can tell you, that the fish chowder would almost definitely have a fishy taste, which would dominate over other tastes

And I can also say, that the veggie beverage would probably have less of a chance affecting the taste, than the fruit beverage would.

 

[CanuckBock]

I definitely got an answer to my question. That I can't deny. But it really did not clear up things for me

I was sort of hoping for something like "The black from the BCM often tends to dominate over other colors" or something similar, but that just made me dizzy. The better half also mentioned something about the e-series, but her color affecting genetics playing is from dachshunds, those tend to have slightly less variance, and the pedigrees are better charted making deductions easier. I sort of didn't understand much of what she was taking about either. I do consider myself as being able to comprehend most things, at least on a basic level, but genetics, along with up to code electrical work, is something that leaves me dumbfounded.

But I can tell you, that the fish chowder would almost definitely have a fishy taste, which would dominate over other tastes

And I can also say, that the veggie beverage would probably have less of a chance affecting the taste, than the fruit beverage would.

The problem with using hobby names is that I cannot tell you if there is any "black" in play here...

I have seen no photos of the parents...no idea even what country is calling them by these hobby names (it matters the geographical location of the poultry!)...may be there are even photo records of past breeding outcomes of what these birds put together have produced! I am virtually blind trying to fight my way outta a soggy wet paper bag here!

If you are asking a question like what does the SOP compliant BCM produce, then that would be fine enough to work with (if APA recognized Marans, which they do not that I know of...ABA calls them an "inactive breed" and does not have them listed in my ABA SOP)...but one has to keep foremost in our minds, you say this here sire is a MIX...a mix with what? What breed, what variety...heaven help us it could be a cross of guinea fowl or even pheasants. Right now there is even a scientific study underway to discover more indepth info on crosses of chickens with quail (button ones I think if I recall which had to be A.I.'d) to discover if the same kind of colour genetics are in either species. Very kewl stuff...

Some interesting reading with stuffed birds and photos

http://messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-birds.htm

Take some good sense along with you if you go to this link since a Mallard crossed on a domestic duck (not a Muscovy) is simply wild type (the Mallard) crossed with human selected mutations of the...you guessed it...MALLARD! LMBO My own bevy of Call Ducks, if left to their own devices would soon revert back to Mallards. Nature's perfect version of the DUCK--they are simply everywhere in the entire world that ducks would think to be! FTD--Gotta luv a duck!

As far as I knew...pigeons were doves??...but maybe I need a good lesson from someone with pigeons on that concept and how it varies when crossing the two. I am pretty, admittedly...pigeon illiterate!

If you want some generic recipes to plug into the chicken calculator to explore the questions you have proposed...purchase Sigrid's Chicken Colour Genetics book and she lists all sorts of recipes for breeds and varieties. She has made the "cooking book" for the chicken calculator questions that you are asking. There are three parts to the book...first you learn some general info on chicken genetics and their colour patterns so that you begin to know what mixes of genetics will produce the affect you want to see in the variety...then you get some very logical explanations on how colour genetics apply to birds (4 gene groups; colour distribution in the e-series / uniform colour changing genes / colour distributing genes / pattern genes) and how they look & interact with other genetics...then the last part is an alphabetic listing of the varieties... What you can "plug & play" with in a chicken calculator. All those "what if" questions can be played about with.

I have no interest in being a person that people come to for colour genetic recipes...buy Sigrid's book if you need the components. I am hoping to help people grasp colour genetics and use it to help them be better breeders of poultry. I am also not interested in breaking apart say the colour black and explaining all the in's & out's of the genetics. That is for you to study and learn about on your own.


The one female is a Cuckoo Marans... well that simply sounds like a "Barred/Cuckoo" chicken...a simple thing in that if the bird is based on silver and black with cuckoo/barring to interupt the colour...you get a black and white chicken! The pattern requires a fast growing feather and is an excellent choice for egg layer breeds--less time and energy wasted getting a good suit of feathers on.

Ah, but not so fast, eh....then you go and read that some of the French Marans are properly called "Cuckoo Golden Neck" not simply just "Cuckoo!" See, hobby name is WRONG if you are referring to FRENCH Marans...are these French Marans then? No idea the country of origin you speak of...you reside in Finland, so Europe is your oyster to choose what birds you want to import...or maybe they are already IN Finland...you give me no location of where these eggs will come from.

So if these ARE French Cuckoo Marans, that means they have red pigments (gold-maybe this gender linked red or autosomal red or the right or wrong e-series) in them...they are NOT a black and white chicken but a black, red and white chicken. Then the gender linked Silver becomes gold (s-series...very important series!) and the proper genetic term is Cuckoo Birchen OR Cuckoo Golden Neck if based on duckwing instead of Birchen.

One thing that Sigrid does not elaborate much on is the mixing of e-series together...or too much into the single doses of certain colour genetics, all the heterozygous expressions, the IMPURE ones. That in itself could fill an entire other book...hers after all says THE BASICS...so it is a start, but not the end by any means.

The demo I did of the beverages is the beginnings for you to build upon. Already you are "getting" that in the e-series, it is VERY important what base we are using in our poultry. It affects other things...

The e-series contains five generally accepted BASES...there could be more as they continue to do more and more indepth research but for now, playing with five alleles in the e-series is enough, thanks!

E as in Extended Black
ER - Birchen
e"+" - Duckwing (wild type)
eb - Brown
eWh - Wheaten


So never mind the funny words...off to the kitchen we shall go now...make this make SENSE...not jibberish!

Let's give each of the alleles in the e-series a flavour...a base or go further and call it a SOUP base flavour or even a BROTH we can make.

When we make chicken colour patterns, we are indeed COOKING up some chooks/ducks/turkeys, etc. ...some eye candy, some visual feasts for the eyes in the lavish feather pattern displays we choose to allow to be created.

E Extended Black - Fish
ER Birchen - Beef
e"+" Duckwing (wild type) - Chicken
eb Brown - Pork
eWh Wheaten - Lamb


So you understand...you want to begin with the right e-series BASE...because that flavours the ENTIRE way the other ingredients you add will taste. How they will behave is overseen by what e-series base they are added to or subtracted from.

I let you think about that roo and two hens so we could make up a mix of beverages and you would get the gist of the changes to the flavour of the drink based on the components used or not used. It took away from the difficulty of understanding "genetics" to say you have a FISH (e-series) based bird with CORN (Silver) as the sire bred to a Fruit girl or a Veggy gal.

A non-French Cuckoo Marans (silver and black bird) can be based on ANY e-series...in varieties like Black or White - one can use ANY of the e-series...although admittedly, some are much better at making exhibition examples of the varieties--cleaner crisper, less leakage of noxious not wanted colours...like Extended Black is an excellent base for a self-black bird!

If the sire is a rare and true FRENCH Cuckoo Marans (and we ignore he is a mix with WHO KNOWS WHAT!)...he can only be based upon TWO broths...Extended Black (Fish) or Birchen (Beef).

So as you keep (beverage or) soup making...you will add more ingredients to your French Cuckoo Marans...him being a Fish or Beef broth becomes vividly evident as you add onions, celery, carrots, peas, even spices such as salt & pepper, herbs like parsley and sage... your vegetables, spices and herbs will compliment the soup broth you have chosen to made the bird with. Do not add too much salt to a fish broth as you may already be using a SEA type fish... the salt you add to a beef base might be in a different amount if your said soup is based upon fish.

How the colour patterns in your chicken that you are building will look...is all very much like building a soup and tweaking how the components will taste by the amounts and the combinations that you choose to use. Indeed, how a soup tastes IS based on the broth you use and therefore determines right off, what you would use or not use.


Keep in mind, when it stops being fun, we will quit it...

So bring out the kazoos, the tambourines, break into songs about sixteen chickens...

​

Heck, I even encase my Showmanship demo hen in a grocery store BQ container...for a laugh or three...we learn more when we are laughing than when smoke is pouring forth from our ears. What really does it matter what colour your egg laying chickens will be...well it matters as you begin to gain more and more knowledge. For entertainment purposes and because we can make predictions...but first we gotta learn a bit more...the BASICS so we can have a really good start, a crack at this big old eggy problem.

​

Do not ask me to lie to you and say some concept like "black dominates other colours" when it is not too much more difficult to learn the basics, the foundation to build upon and then really BE a force to contend with because you learned it up right, you learned it by crawling, walking, skipping (<--like to see that!) on to running the four minute mile! My parents witnessed that feat of Roger Bannister's and John Landy's in 1954...my sister and I grew up as track & field orphans--playing in the Empire stadium's long jump pit; making sand castles while my father (javelin) coached my mother in middle distance running (800 & 1500 meters)!

Colour genetics is easy but there is a method to this madness and as with all things...the basics are what we need to build upon. Start off too fast and have an improper foundation and the house of cards comes tumbling down like Humpty Dumpty. The only eggs I want to see scrambled are ones fit for toast.

For most persons...the Marans is an EGG laying breed and what they look like is far, far less important than their eggyness...sorta like a race horse being sway backed and camel necked and still winning against all the odds that say the conformation SUCKS! It is not so much the L00K one is after but the PRODUCTION, yes?

I have hauled out most all of my porcupines...yeh Diva is gonna like these too... made of the same kinda materials as wubber duckies!

Awesome to demo alleles in Punnett Squares...lovely colours--wickedly FUN textuers!​

In the next little while, I will be doing up some Punnett Squares on gender and yeller/willow shanks but using these SPIKIES for a much less intimidating demo. Would be really nice if we could all be in the same room tossing rubbery porcupines at each other but we can't, but at least I can demo them in some photos and try to share this that way.

When you do the hands on...it is far far more appealing than some imaginary concept we have to visualize in our heads...physically moving the alleles around and seeing them line up and what they mean--so much better in person!

Playing with toys...yeh...even at our ages, eh?

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[ronott1]

The problem with using hobby names is that I cannot tell you if there is any "black" in play here...

I have seen no photos of the parents...no idea even what country is calling them by these hobby names (it matters the geographical location of the poultry!)...may be there are even photo records of past breeding outcomes of what these birds put together have produced! I am virtually blind trying to fight my way outta a soggy wet paper bag here!

If you are asking a question like what does the SOP compliant BCM produce, then that would be fine enough to work with (if APA recognized Marans, which they do not that I know of...ABA calls them an "inactive breed" and does not have them listed in my ABA SOP)...but one has to keep foremost in our minds, you say this here sire is a MIX...a mix with what? What breed, what variety...heaven help us it could be a cross of guinea fowl or even pheasants. Right now there is even a scientific study underway to discover more indepth info on crosses of chickens with quail (button ones I think if I recall which had to be A.I.'d) to discover if the same kind of colour genetics are in either species. Very kewl stuff...

Some interesting reading with stuffed birds and photos

http://messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-birds.htm

Take some good sense along with you if you go to this link since a Mallard crossed on a domestic duck (not a Muscovy) is simply wild type (the Mallard) crossed with human selected mutations of the...you guessed it...MALLARD! LMBO My own bevy of Call Ducks, if left to their own devices would soon revert back to Mallards. Nature's perfect version of the DUCK--they are simply everywhere in the entire world that ducks would think to be! FTD--Gotta luv a duck!

As far as I knew...pigeons were doves??...but maybe I need a good lesson from someone with pigeons on that concept and how it varies when crossing the two. I am pretty, admittedly...pigeon illiterate!

If you want some generic recipes to plug into the chicken calculator to explore the questions you have proposed...purchase Sigrid's Chicken Colour Genetics book and she lists all sorts of recipes for breeds and varieties. She has made the "cooking book" for the chicken calculator questions that you are asking. There are three parts to the book...first you learn some general info on chicken genetics and their colour patterns so that you begin to know what mixes of genetics will produce the affect you want to see in the variety...then you get some very logical explanations on how colour genetics apply to birds (4 gene groups; colour distribution in the e-series / uniform colour changing genes / colour distributing genes / pattern genes) and how they look & interact with other genetics...then the last part is an alphabetic listing of the varieties... What you can "plug & play" with in a chicken calculator. All those "what if" questions can be played about with.

I have no interest in being a person that people come to for colour genetic recipes...buy Sigrid's book if you need the components. I am hoping to help people grasp colour genetics and use it to help them be better breeders of poultry. I am also not interested in breaking apart say the colour black and explaining all the in's & out's of the genetics. That is for you to study and learn about on your own.


The one female is a Cuckoo Marans... well that simply sounds like a "Barred/Cuckoo" chicken...a simple thing in that if the bird is based on silver and black with cuckoo/barring to interupt the colour...you get a black and white chicken! The pattern requires a fast growing feather and is an excellent choice for egg layer breeds--less time and energy wasted getting a good suit of feathers on.

Ah, but not so fast, eh....then you go and read that some of the French Marans are properly called "Cuckoo Golden Neck" not simply just "Cuckoo!" See, hobby name is WRONG if you are referring to FRENCH Marans...are these French Marans then? No idea the country of origin you speak of...you reside in Finland, so Europe is your oyster to choose what birds you want to import...or maybe they are already IN Finland...you give me no location of where these eggs will come from.

So if these ARE French Cuckoo Marans, that means they have red pigments (gold-maybe this gender linked red or autosomal red or the right or wrong e-series) in them...they are NOT a black and white chicken but a black, red and white chicken. Then the gender linked Silver becomes gold (s-series...very important series!) and the proper genetic term is Cuckoo Birchen OR Cuckoo Golden Neck if based on duckwing instead of Birchen.

One thing that Sigrid does not elaborate much on is the mixing of e-series together...or too much into the single doses of certain colour genetics, all the heterozygous expressions, the IMPURE ones. That in itself could fill an entire other book...hers after all says THE BASICS...so it is a start, but not the end by any means.

The demo I did of the beverages is the beginnings for you to build upon. Already you are "getting" that in the e-series, it is VERY important what base we are using in our poultry. It affects other things...

The e-series contains five generally accepted BASES...there could be more as they continue to do more and more indepth research but for now, playing with five alleles in the e-series is enough, thanks!

E as in Extended Black
ER - Birchen
e"+" - Duckwing (wild type)
eb - Brown
eWh - Wheaten


So never mind the funny words...off to the kitchen we shall go now...make this make SENSE...not jibberish!

Let's give each of the alleles in the e-series a flavour...a base or go further and call it a SOUP base flavour or even a BROTH we can make.

When we make chicken colour patterns, we are indeed COOKING up some chooks/ducks/turkeys, etc. ...some eye candy, some visual feasts for the eyes in the lavish feather pattern displays we choose to allow to be created.

E Extended Black - Fish
ER Birchen - Beef
e"+" Duckwing (wild type) - Chicken
eb Brown - Pork
eWh Wheaten - Lamb


So you understand...you want to begin with the right e-series BASE...because that flavours the ENTIRE way the other ingredients you add will taste. How they will behave is overseen by what e-series base they are added to or subtracted from.

I let you think about that roo and two hens so we could make up a mix of beverages and you would get the gist of the changes to the flavour of the drink based on the components used or not used. It took away from the difficulty of understanding "genetics" to say you have a FISH (e-series) based bird with CORN (Silver) as the sire bred to a Fruit girl or a Veggy gal.

A non-French Cuckoo Marans (silver and black bird) can be based on ANY e-series...in varieties like Black or White - one can use ANY of the e-series...although admittedly, some are much better at making exhibition examples of the varieties--cleaner crisper, less leakage of noxious not wanted colours...like Extended Black is an excellent base for a self-black bird!

If the sire is a rare and true FRENCH Cuckoo Marans (and we ignore he is a mix with WHO KNOWS WHAT!)...he can only be based upon TWO broths...Extended Black (Fish) or Birchen (Beef).

So as you keep (beverage or) soup making...you will add more ingredients to your French Cuckoo Marans...him being a Fish or Beef broth becomes vividly evident as you add onions, celery, carrots, peas, even spices such as salt & pepper, herbs like parsley and sage... your vegetables, spices and herbs will compliment the soup broth you have chosen to made the bird with. Do not add too much salt to a fish broth as you may already be using a SEA type fish... the salt you add to a beef base might be in a different amount if your said soup is based upon fish.

How the colour patterns in your chicken that you are building will look...is all very much like building a soup and tweaking how the components will taste by the amounts and the combinations that you choose to use. Indeed, how a soup tastes IS based on the broth you use and therefore determines right off, what you would use or not use.


Keep in mind, when it stops being fun, we will quit it...

So bring out the kazoos, the tambourines, break into songs about sixteen chickens...

​

Heck, I even encase my Showmanship demo hen in a grocery store BQ container...for a laugh or three...we learn more when we are laughing than when smoke is pouring forth from our ears. What really does it matter what colour your egg laying chickens will be...well it matters as you begin to gain more and more knowledge. For entertainment purposes and because we can make predictions...but first we gotta learn a bit more...the BASICS so we can have a really good start, a crack at this big old eggy problem.

​

Do not ask me to lie to you and say some concept like "black dominates other colours" when it is not too much more difficult to learn the basics, the foundation to build upon and then really BE a force to contend with because you learned it up right, you learned it by crawling, walking, skipping (<--like to see that!) on to running the four minute mile! My parents witnessed that feat of Roger Bannister's and John Landy's in 1954...my sister and I grew up as track & field orphans--playing in the Empire stadium's long jump pit; making sand castles while my father (javelin) coached my mother in middle distance running (800 & 1500 meters)!

Colour genetics is easy but there is a method to this madness and as with all things...the basics are what we need to build upon. Start off too fast and have an improper foundation and the house of cards comes tumbling down like Humpty Dumpty. The only eggs I want to see scrambled are ones fit for toast.

For most persons...the Marans is an EGG laying breed and what they look like is far, far less important than their eggyness...sorta like a race horse being sway backed and camel necked and still winning against all the odds that say the conformation SUCKS! It is not so much the L00K one is after but the PRODUCTION, yes?

I have hauled out most all of my porcupines...yeh Diva is gonna like these too... made of the same kinda materials as wubber duckies!

Awesome to demo alleles in Punnett Squares...lovely colours--wickedly FUN textuers!​

In the next little while, I will be doing up some Punnett Squares on gender and yeller/willow shanks but using these SPIKIES for a much less intimidating demo. Would be really nice if we could all be in the same room tossing rubbery porcupines at each other but we can't, but at least I can demo them in some photos and try to share this that way.

When you do the hands on...it is far far more appealing than some imaginary concept we have to visualize in our heads...physically moving the alleles around and seeing them line up and what they mean--so much better in person!

Playing with toys...yeh...even at our ages, eh?

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

Marans were added to the APA but have not made it into the print version because Marans made it in after the latest revision was printed.

The SOP for them can be found on the Marans club website. There was supposed to be an insert that could be added to the current APA but I have been told it was never distributed.

Cheers!

 

[scottcaddy]

My Dear Lady Tara,
I'm surprised that you have made the genetics easy enough for me to understand most of what you are posting. Too say nothing of the fact that it is fun enough to keep reading and rereading to make sure this old&slow brain is getting it!!
We used to live up in the Up of MI and had to learn all about 6 months of snow covering anything left out 1 day too long.
Thanks much and keep up the good work.
Scott

 

[vehve]

Scott, Tara really seems like a high school biology teacher sometimes, she has a way of making it fun and easily digestible.

*Edit* Although I have trouble memorizing it all.

 

[Northie]

"Make a fist and see how long that stays unfrozen when stuck in your freezer..."
Lol OK... Funny and ironic side story... I have a neat picture (somewhere) of steam coming off of my hands after using them to clear the ice out of our ice fishing hole. It was -30'c.